Obedience Trialling Question

[jesomil]

I once saw a full on fight during the stays. It was awful. I was dead scared leaving my dog in stays with this feral dog at the same level. Thankfully they finally realised their dog had major issues and stopped trialling.

I have found that most of the time, the judge wont re run the stays except for extreme circumstances. A stay is a stay.

I used to practise stays everywhere. I used to get off lead dogs running around and up to my dog and would get another dog to speak on command next to her. In the end, she wouldnt break a stay for anything.....well just about anything.

I do hate stays though. They make me sick with worry during them. Once, we were on 198 in open. My highest score ever, i was so excited. After passsing the sit, we were walking back from the downs and there was my girl still perfectly down. I was bursting with pride and happiness. Just as i was returning to her at the last minute, she sat up.

I can still feel the disapointment now, 8 years on.................

[poodlefan]

Jesomil:

I can still feel the disapointment now, 8 years on.................

Ah dogs, they know how to keep us humble. I recall Ted my oldest dog one day doing a lightening fast recall and a perfect sit in front... of the judge who was about 5 feet behind me to my right. He gave the "finish your dog" command and Ted went perfect around behind him to sit at MY side. Little bugger.

[MrsD]

On the subject of dogs in CCD & Novice that arent ready, it's very much the same up here in Qld. We have a gentleman at our club who has decided that he is going to put his dog in a trial this month - the dog is way too young & is not even CLOSE to being ready to go into a trialling ring .

Edited cos MrD made me

Edited November 15, 2006 by MrsD

[dogdude]

It may be a pain for serious beginners to enter CCD with the level of most of the competitors

but there needs to be some bridging level to encourage new blood to the sport. It gets boring to see the same old trail blazers at every trial all the time.

The serious triallers with experience would not bother entering anyway, why would you?

When I was trialling around 8 years ago the sport was starting to take a dive until this was introduced. This at least shows them what they need to strive for.

[leopuppy04]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. It is a terrible thing sometimes the stays! I have tried my darndest to proof as I can and usually he is fairly stable... we went through a stage of dropping but this was partly due to an injury I believe and i've been trying to work through this with him at times. Unfortunately this is our most unstable exercise but that doesn't mean that we aren't ready. I have been proofing in all situations and when I can try with a 'mock line-up' as this tends to cause the most hiccups. It really is the joys of trialling isn't it! I take it that it is the choice of the judge and whatever you get dealt with is their call.

As for CCD & Novice - I can't comment on Novice but CCD is interesting. Half of the dogs are REALLY good - nice heeling, really steady on the work etc. Others are lagging, leaving the ring, heeling metres wide and frankly need a LOT more work. I don't know the story behind what causes their dogs to do this, but IMO the dogs need more time training and less time trialling. At least at training you can feed/reward when the dog is in the correct position. I am so glad I have had a bunch of people to help me get my dog to where he is today. He isn't perfect or anything but I am immensley proud of the work that he pulls of and his attitude in the ring. We just have to keep plodding away at the stays - LOL!

I know how you all feel about missing your passes because of the stays - I was sitting on 94 (and our title!) when he broke his stays. Its all about learning curves I guess, but hopefully I don't stress him out too much at the next trial!!!! It frustrates me though when people tell me it is 'easy'.... I'd like to see them try!!! :D

[CaseyKay]

But there are dogs that break stays time and time again in the ring, that physically interfere with other dogs every time and their owners know they will do this and keep entering anyway. Their reasoning seems to be that "he needs to practice in a ring situation" (yeah, at club maybe??)

But what's the point of practicing in a situation where you can't reward and/or correct your dog? That just seems counterproductive to me. :D

Well, it seem pretty pointless to me too. But some people ask the judge to correct their dog for them (if they are say a friend of the judge). Maybe they think that will help, these are stays facing away from your dog. Of course you can also get someone else to correct your dog OUTSIDE the ring. I worry about our younger girl in stays because she is blind on the right side and gets a fright if a dog touches her and she didn't see it coming.

[dogdayz]

I think a number of the poorer ones are not necessarily less trained but handler nerves among new competitors feeding back to the dogs who are already being asked to work on a strange ground among strange dogs get the better. I know my first trial was walking much slower than normal causing the dog to lose interest. I have very consciously to make sure i go at my normal speed, and even now i am aware that i often start too slow, and realise the dog has lagged on first turn, so speed up to get her back.

[poodlefan]

Dogdude:

It may be a pain for serious beginners to enter CCD with the level of most of the competitors

It doesn't have to be provided they have been given sufficient training and guidance to prepare them for the sport. We've seen first timers knock off more experienced people in the trialling ring this year here.

The ACT has seen a raft of new obedience competitors this year.. many of them have succeeded in obtaining their CCDs and are going on with obedience but they did the preparation first. Sometimes they had to conquer their nerves and polish up their handling but basically they could perform the essential features of each exercise. Others simply haven't put in the work and expected that somehow CCD would have a lower standard of judging than Novice does. It doesn't - the exercises may be simpler but they are not judged to a lower standard - either your dog can perform them or lead or it can't. Actually seeing an obedience trial is a good idea before entering one. Some people haven't and have no idea how it works. That's serious lack of preparation.

The future of the sport will not be aided by instructors encouraging people to "have a go" only to have expectations dashed because they simply aren't ready. There's been some of that here this year. Some of the instructors responsible have not trialled themselves and really don't understand what's involved. That's an emerging issue as clubs like mine that used to focus on formal obedience trialling training change their focus to more companion dog training.

We have mock trials and non-offical competition days for people to see if they are ready. They get feedback from the judges there too about how they are going. Rally O was touted for a while as a good introduction to obedience. I think it is as the ring atmosphere is far less formal. However the powers that ran Rallyo actively discouraged obedience triallers from competing. Go figure.

I consider it to be no more than good sportsmanship not to compete in any sport with a dog that is likely to interfere with other dogs. Some people do precisely that and don't give a fig that they may undo months of training for another dog.

[poodlefan]

Leo:

It frustrates me though when people tell me it is 'easy'.... I'd like to see them try!!!

Ah yes, those would be the people who've never confronted a training challenge and whose dogs succeed despite them, not because of them. I've seen people succeed with some dogs who need to be clairvoyant to read their footwork and cues. Lucky handlers I say.

If it makes you feel better, my oldest boy Ted finally got his CD this year aged 8 - we trialled for the first time when he was 2! :D Nothing wrong with the dog but I had the WORST nerves. Some time out of obedience and into agility helped a lot. Only having to do one heeling pattern in Novice also helped Ted keep his focus.

[leopuppy04]

If it makes you feel better, my oldest boy Ted finally got his CD this year aged 8 - we trialled for the first time when he was 2! :D Nothing wrong with the dog but I had the WORST nerves. Some time out of obedience and into agility helped a lot. Only having to do one heeling pattern in Novice also helped Ted keep his focus.

Yay - that must have made you so proud!!! Jumping up and down, crying etc,etc!! LOL! Congrats anyways! Even if you do have a good dog it is still hard to put the nerves aside etc. Even gaining a pass when there are so many areas a dog can stuff up.... and they always find new ways!

Dogdayz - I do agree with you - first trial jitters, even jitters before your first pass can really affect how you perform...... I guess we shouldn't really judge should we :D

[poodlefan]

Leo:

Yay - that must have made you so proud!!! Jumping up and down, crying etc,etc!!

I think I was more just relieved we'd finally made it. That dog reads me like a book... he'd be like "what's wrong, why are you so freaked out?". I had to completely change my focus away from worrying about how we were doing and onto making it a really positive experience for Ted - that required a whole change of body language and smiling quietly at him till my face ached.

Darcy couldn't give a rats about my nerves - he's made of sterner stuff. I've just started him in formal obedience training and am looking foward to seeing how he goes.

[JulesP]

My old border interferred with a dog during the stays at a club comp once. He just got up and went and said hello. Actually think that the bitch must of been coming into season from the way my boy had his ears. He got de-sexed the next day! :D

[dogdude]

Poodlefan:

The question I pose for you is how many of those students would have bothered to go on to "real trialling level" had they not been encouraged to have a go. A lot of these get motivated by their experience and go on to bigger things.

The trialling dog is a showcase of the handlers talents and if sound, will not be worried by outside influences. In most cases, your dog will show you up as the problem! To be worried by this to me is worrying about my own ability.

The problem is, novice is made up of probably 70% of dogs that are not ready as well. Where does the debate end?

Just remember that we compete in a "sport". People get involved in sport for a number of reasons, not just to win. (me not one of those :D )

Edited November 15, 2006 by dogdude

[wheres my rock]

i agree it is a sport but why should we hve to risk our dogs being intimidated or attacked because eople come out with dogs that arent under enough control I dont think its encouraging when epople go out to early keep failing get told of if their dog is anuisance etc t would be more encouraging to have a dog that is ready go out do well and feel proud from all the compliments you get

[poodlefan]

Dogdude:

The question I pose for you is how many of those students would have bothered to go on to "real trialling level" had they not been encouraged to have a go. A lot of these get motivated by their experience and go on to bigger things.

Yep, and a lot don't. Personally I consider both Novice and CCD to be "real trialling levels" albeit only elementary ones. It's not very encouraging to be told to "have a go"and to fail dismally is it without really knowing why? That's what I see some people doing. I encourage my students to compete when they are ready, not before. Why set someone up to fail? You can encourage by showing someone what's expected and then helping them meet that standard. I also encourage newbies to steward at trials - gets them right into the ring where they can see what happens and what "success" looks like.

Just remember that we compete in a "sport". People get involved in sport for a number of reasons, not just to win. (me not one of those )

I don't get involved just to win (just as well :D ). I got involved initally to do things with my dogs. I get involved now to test my dogs against a set standard and to obtain titles. I wouldn't expect to walk onto a cricket pitch in an organised game without having done enough training, having some skill or knowing the rules - why do people do want to encourage that in dog sports?

Edited November 15, 2006 by poodlefan

[dogdude]

Sport is full of backmarkers and also rans. Do we take them out and only compete with the front runners? How will they ever get to the elite level? In the case of '' dangerous dogs" in trials, there are rules in place to disqualify and remove dogs like this in a trial and that type of thing is rare.

I think it is great that a lot more people are having a go, ready or not. The more, the merrier.

I suppose this debate could go on forever! :D

[poodlefan]

Dogdude:

Sport is full of backmarkers and also rans. Do we take them out and only compete with the front runners? How will they ever get to the elite level?

I know, I'm one of them. :D No, you don't take them out but you do insist that they meet a minimum standard of control. More and more sports are insisting on that for both safety and legal issues.

In the case of '' dangerous dogs" in trials, there are rules in place to disqualify and remove dogs like this in a trial and that type of thing is rare.

Yes, it is thank God. However that's little consolation after the event to the owners of other dogs and even a "friendly" big dog bouncing on top of yours can do a fair bit of damage when your dog weighs only 4 kg.

I think it is great that a lot more people are having a go, ready or not. The more, the merrier.

Yep, the more the merrier provided they have their dogs under control and don't get po faced when they fail. You don't have to be perfect to compete but would you go into stays saying "oh he's never made the time before so we'll just see how he goes?" and then when you dog breaks in the sit stay, want to have another go at the down?

I suppose this debate could go on forever!

Yep, the joy of DOL. :D I take you point about encouraging particpation but look at Eddie the Eagle - bloody hopeless but not to the point of danger or harming other competitors. He had to meet a standard to compete.

[dogdude]

Hi poodlefan

But I want the last word!!! I like to win remember!!! :D

[poodlefan]

Dogdude:

But I want the last word!!! I like to win remember!!!

OK. :D

:D

[wheres my rock]

actually we were heavily involved in obedience and have taken a step back because i wont risk my little dog being stomed on by some out f control nut so maybe having dogs out of control does the oppostie and sends people that were involved away.

I think having a and b classes is good so those who have titled dogs before comepte in b novice and then the newcomers dont have to compete against experienced triallers and those of us who take it more seriously dont have to deal with people who are just giving it a go