rebekah_ashby Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 (edited) Hi there, I need help on how to stop my two boys from going berserk everytime the see another dog. I live in a unit so I need to take them out for not only a walk but also a couple wee breaks each day. Almost everytime I take them out they go nuts when they see another dog and just today one of them managed to get off his lead (this is the first time this has every happened) and take on a staffy, both my guys are small and wouldn't stand a chance against an angry staffy. Luckily the other dog didn't really seem up for a fight, think she kinda thought it was just fun as I was able to easily pick up my dog out of the scuffle. Another big issue is that the dog he took on lives in my building, her owner did not seem very impressed at all. Weird thing is when they are at my boyfriends and we go down to the park and let them off the lead they don't seem to be overly bothered, they go and do the whole sniffing thing, but that's about all. They seem to be better behaved around other dogs while off the lead but I can't have them off lead around my house as it is not safe with teh busy roads etc. I want to be able to take them out without having to worry about them everytime we go out, and as they are only little it's rather embarassing that they think they can take on every dog they see big or small hehehe. I also cannot be annoying my neighbours. Oscar (the one that took on the staffy) used to love other dogs, not sure what happened. I had a back yard for a while and probably didn't take them out as often as I should have I guess this had a negative effect. He is also now very picky on who he likes and doesn't like. He has never bitten anyone but often if people come up to pat him he will give off a warning growl, I'm afraid that one day someone will come on him too quick and he may snap at them I'm in a bit of a tight spot for cash at the moment so i can't afford to have someone come in for obedience training though I'm not sure how well it would work. A couple years back I sent them off to doggie boot camp for two weeks only to have them cme back worse in someways than they were before. Please help, i love my boys no end and I just want us all to be happy together Bek Edited November 8, 2006 by rebekah_ashby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 Sounds to me as if this is very much a YOU problem and, as is commonly the case, that your Leadership is out of whack. There would also be the element of learnt behaviour and I would guess some relationship in your leash-handling techniques. I hear what you say about money being tight but honestly, it would be so worthwhile if you could get someone out to suss the situation out properly, set up a program for you and SHOW you how to apply it. In the meantime, you could introduce the "TOT" (Triangle of Temptation) program (refer top of Training Forum .... it is pinned there) which will help towards Leadership issues. Trying to train over the nett is frought with difficulties and when there is an element of aggression involved, frought with danger. It is risky (IMO) for trainers to tell you what to do over the nett and even more risky for you to be left to your own interpretation of explanation and application of what you think is meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebekah_ashby Posted November 8, 2006 Author Share Posted November 8, 2006 thanks for the TOT tip, I'll give it a go and if that doesn't work I'll just have to try save some cash and call in the professionals. I'm just a little wary though as I have tried twice and it just hasn't worked - no doubt my fault hehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 I'm just a little wary though as I have tried twice and it just hasn't worked ... For what period of time did you give things a go before you stopped? What things did you try? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 dogs that are used to ruling the roost will push you - but you have to persevere. The two biggest rules in dog training are Consistant and Persistant. You keep to a set set of rules and NEVER break them. None of the whole 'oh sometimes its ok'. Things are either OK or they are not. If you show incosistancy the dogs dont respect you or what you say. Sounds like Oscar is taking on a leadership role. If you stop being the top dog, the dog will do it for you. Show leadership and he will settle into the comfort that you make the decisions for him, and you will notice his behaviour improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 I agree with the advice above - you need to get someone in to help you out with this. In the meantime, try to find a small limited slip (martingale) collar for your dogs. Properly fitted, they will not be able to pull one off over their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebekah_ashby Posted November 9, 2006 Author Share Posted November 9, 2006 (edited) For what period of time did you give things a go before you stopped? What things did you try? It was actually some years back. I first had some one come in and assess the situation. They said there were leadership issues suprise suprise. I can't remember it all but some of it was to always eat first, which I still try to enforce. To ignore them when they are jumping all over me till they settle down, still try to do this but it has very little impact on Oscar, my other dog whitey is generally a quiet dog so don't have so many problems with him but he goes berserk around other dogs always has. Used to take him to the park and he'd find the biggest dog and chase after it barking like mad once it had turned it's back. The trainer said this was because he didn't feel I was a strong leader, he was trying to protect the pack but he was a chicken so that's why he waited till they weren't looking to go for em. She said not to let them up on the bed/lounge etc unless they were asked up by myself and not to let them sit on my lap, this is a hard one as we love to cuddle. Also they sleep in my room of a night and we sleep in bed together, I know I know this may not be the best but I can't keep them out of my bed while I'm asleep and if I lock them outside in the lounge then I'm depriving myself and them of being together and snuggling which we all love, I work all day so this time is important to us. The trainer said it was ok for us to sleep togther as long as I established who's boss and they only went up when I said they could. Well that's gone out the window as soon as I get home from work and open up the bedroom they jump up to snooze on the bed. I don't have a problem with this as I'm in a one bedroom unit with wooden floors thoughout and the bed's comfy. I also sent then off to a two week inhouse training course, the only thing that came out of that was that oscar now knows how to drop, whitey refuses to drop. They both already knew how to sit and will always do it when I say.... unless there is another dog around I don't get it though they are very well behaved unless there is another dog around, they listen to what I say on do it etc, maybe it's just as it suits them at the time?? They are also much better off the lead than on, other dogs done't seem to bother them much at all if they are off the lead, but I have busy streets around me so it is not safe to walk them off the lead just in case. Bek Edited November 9, 2006 by rebekah_ashby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 What are they like individually if you only walk one at a time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebekah_ashby Posted November 9, 2006 Author Share Posted November 9, 2006 What are they like individually if you only walk one at a time? Hmm don't know, have't really taken them out seperately. Not sure what it is about those leads but just spoke to my boyfriend who was just dropping the boys back to my house, he just passed two staffies with whitey off the lead and there were no dramas a little sniffing and thats it. He was carrying Oscar as he had to cross the road, didn't trust him with the cars, but even he didn't make a peep, granted he was being carried It's weird I don't get it..... Oh and thanks for all your responses so far Bek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmo_em ♀ Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 I have a question: Is it ok for the dog to be on the couch with you if you use a command such as 'up' (once its been established that his place is the floor)? Will he think of that as a reward or will he think 'ha ha Ive won I am master'? Ive been told as part of elmos training that he is to stay off the couch. He's doing quite well (not too many uh uhs) but I miss the snuggles too. Training is harder on me than him Will it ever be ok for him to be on the couch or will that confuse the pack order again??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 I have a question: Is it ok for the dog to be on the couch with you if you use a command such as 'up' (once its been established that his place is the floor)? Will he think of that as a reward or will he think 'ha ha Ive won I am master'? Generally speaking, if there are no issues (or issues have been well resolved), you can introduce the command for getting up on the couch. Introduce one for getting off also. The dog is then getting something he likes, but ONLY on your terms (and you must ensure this is clear to him) and it is this that needs to be adhered to. Quite often, doing it this way doesn't impact negatively, but just watch for any little behaviour hints that might suggest that things are slipping backwards. That will be your indicator as to whether it is making a difference from your dog's perception point of view. I would not commence this, though, until the 'slate has been wiped clean' (ie the dog is clear on and has accepted his place in the pack) and that it has been this way for a good period of time. If there are no issues at all in relation to heirarchy, then I don't see any probs with dogs being on the couch, but I think it's best to have the "on" and "off" switch from the very beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 (edited) RA - I get the feeling that what YOU are doing (or was advised to do eg. eat first; ignore dog's attempts to initiate contact etc.) was correct, but that perhaps it was not made crystal clear for you on how this can be feasibly done .... or that you 'fudged the edges' (ie didn't FULLY follow through) for your dog. I also see that there's some things you're not doing because it makes YOU feel deprived. I think the first step in modifying your dog's behaviour so that you can more easily enjoy your outside interaction with him is to acknowledge that it is about the DOG, not yourself. By the sounds of it, the reason "things aren't working" is because YOU haven't followed through. And this does not help your dog, who figures you are lumping the responsibility of having to protect and govern onto him. This puts pressure on the dog. It is far kinder to do the things the dog perceives as "leader material" so the dog can become a more relaxed and less anxious animal. I guess it is a question we humans really need to ask ourselves sometimes - how much do we REALLY love our dogs .... or do we use the word "love" to disguise a bit of our own selfishness? I'm towing the hard line here, RA, because I love nothing more than people to be able to interact with their dogs in complete harmony. I'm for the dogs .... so I apologise to you if I seem a bit harsh. However, all said and done, there's not much point seeking help from here or from a behaviourist if you will not follow through consistently for the sake of your dog and his emotional status. If you do seek help again though, I commend you for that .... but be prepared and determined to see it through. Being leader doesn't mean we cannot interact with and love our dogs. Edited November 9, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebekah_ashby Posted November 9, 2006 Author Share Posted November 9, 2006 (edited) Erny, you are right and I know it, I guess that as they are so good in all ways but one (which is only now starting to get bad) it has been easy to just roll with it as things seemed fine. I've no doubt unconciously let things slide which is why the boys have started to slip. I'm going to start the TOT method and see how things go, and also will try to get some training done once I have the cash and ensure I follow through. With both the last times we did the training I must admit I still came out a little vague as to what to do. Will make sure I get clear instructions. Thanks for the advice Edited November 9, 2006 by rebekah_ashby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 (edited) RA - Glad you took no offence to my strong post. It was with the best of intentions. I will PM you. Edited November 9, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmo_em ♀ Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Hey RA I just want to say that you will probably be amazed how quickly things turn around once your dogs realise they can trust you completely, rely on you to make the decisions and that you are there to protect them. They really are very smart animals. And thanks Erny. I was hoping that would be the case Might be a bit longer before I teach him the up command. Hes been off my bed now for 3 weeks and sleeping like a baby in his own bed without any issues so I don't think it will take long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Might be a bit longer before I teach him the up command. Hes been off my bed now for 3 weeks and sleeping like a baby in his own bed without any issues so I don't think it will take long Yep. Factor in to how long the dog has been receiving the wrong messages from you (in regards to leadership) and then factor in how long he's been receiving the right messages from you. Eg. 4 years of wrong messages -vs- 3 weeks of right messages. Not a long time for "right" to completely and convincingly win out. On the otherhand: Eg. 2 weeks of wrong messages -vs- 3 weeks of right messages. See the difference? It's really difficult for anyone to put an exact time frame as to how long you leave things as they now are before you endeavour the intro back to your bed. It's really a matter of 'feel'. But if you weight things up by taking into account how long things have been beforehand compared to how long things have been 'turned around', this might give you an idea. It's great that things are beginning to improve for you. Keep up the good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmo_em ♀ Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Totally agree. Im hoping hell be well on the way in 2 more weeks coz Im going away and hes staying with a minder. Thats something Im a little worried about, I asked the trainer about it and he said it should be ok. Even if he lapses a bit while hes away hell pick it up again once at home. It would be a good test to see how long it takes him to get back into the routine. Hope its not going to stuff it all up coz I can't cancel my trip...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebekah_ashby Posted November 9, 2006 Author Share Posted November 9, 2006 Hey RA I just want to say that you will probably be amazed how quickly things turn around once your dogs realise they can trust you completely, rely on you to make the decisions and that you are there to protect them. They really are very smart animals. I know I think my boys are a little too smart they used to be such good boys don't know what happend but I'm sure we can get back there Bek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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