English Cockers And Trial Work.....

[Erny]

I would expect that if one is into breeding for working attributes, you'd need/want to 'exhibit' your dog's abilities by trialling/competing in the chosen field ............ such as the Retrieving Trials etc.

If I was after Retrieving attributes in a dog, that's where I'd head to observe the dog in drive and revealing its skills. I doubt I'd go to a show ring for that.

[nell77]

yes thats so true Erny, well put. But what if you want to have a go at the show ring too, it's something that i may not like but i do want to have a go, if i don't i will always be wondering! ;)

The breeder i have turned too has had prodegy up in Qld do quite well in the obedience, in other areas i'm not sure......well worth finding out. But her dogs have the most lovliest of temps and thats a key factor for any dog regardless of what i am going to do, it's no.1 for me. She also has kids....small ones and the puppies are brought up in a great family environment so that really kicks in for me too...

I really need to meet people who have experience in the working side of Dogs, i just don't know enough really.that's why i have joined here! Thanks Erny your inputs been great 'food for thought'

[Maverick]

Both of my guys are from Vi Catley.. Kistenwales

There is 3 Kistenwales dogs out doing agility at the moment.

[Erny]

;) yes thats so true Erny, well put. But what if you want to have a go at the show ring too, it's something that i may not like but i do want to have a go, if i don't i will always be wondering!

Then have a go. But I think you need to explore the various options (ie showing; field trials; obedience trials etc. etc.) to determine where your passion lies, and focus on that as your priority. ETA: After all, if you don't really know what speciality you want to be active in with your dog, how will you know what lineage and which pup would be the right one for you? Anything you do beyond your chosen 'speciality' would be a bonus (IMO), provided, of course, the training for each additional skill is not in conflict with the training requirements and goals of your main field of interest.

Edited November 8, 2006 by Erny

[Working_Setters]

As I’m sure you know Cockers are flushing spaniels that were originally bred to find and flush game before a gun and retrieve game once it was shot. In Oz a Cockers primary quarry is rabbits, they maybe also be used on hare and quail, and for retrieving ducks (in those states which still have a duck/quail season - NSW unfortunately no longer has a season). In order to hunt over a Cocker you will need a shooters licence, a shotgun, a duck/quail licence (if you intend shooting duck/quail, if so you will need to sit a duck ID test) and access to private land where you can find and shoot rabbits/hare/quail and ducks.

Field trials are designed to simulate this hunting and dogs are judged on their effectiveness in the field, as well as on obedience etc. In order to train a Cocker for this type of work will need most of the same things as you need for hunting. Obviously basic obedience training can be done in many places from the lounge room to the local footy oval and a certain amount of preparative field work can be done by firing blanks etc, but eventually there will come a time that to progress further in field work, you need to get out there and do the real thing. There are some field trials run for pointing dogs under “non-shooting” conditions, I’m unaware of these types of trials ever being run for spaniels. Basically in Oz, spaniel trials are run on wild rabbits, with competitors both handling their spaniel and shooting game flushed by there dog. There was a recent spaniel trial held on a game preserve, where pheasants were used in place of rabbits. Although open to all breeds of spaniels, only English Springer Spaniels competed. ESS are by far the dominate spaniel breed in field trials in this country. This trial was judged by a good friend of mine, he’s interested in getting a working cocker for his next dog, and intends importing from New Zealand, I would recommend you do the same if you want a dog that has been breed specifically for work. The costs of importation from New Zealand are not high.

Retrieving trials are different to field trials. Retrieving trials are designed to test a dog’s retrieving ability (obviously), they do simulate hunting to an extent, but also extend and test many retrieving skills well beyond what one might reasonably expect to encounter in a days hunting over a cocker. Retrieving trials are in many ways more accessible than field trials, b/c there are many more clubs that hold training days, non competitive events for novices etc. As there are many more people competing in retrieving trials, it is far more likely you will find somebody knowledgeable enough to assist you with training in your area. Also for retrieving trials much more of the dog’s training can be done with tennis balls, plastic bumpers and a cap gun, there is less need for live game and there is not the need to find access to hunting land etc. As mentioned above cocker do retrieve, some of them very well, but it is always going to be difficult to beat the retrieving breeds in these types of competitions. Other gundog breeds such as GSPs, Weims, Vizsla, Britt and ESS do compete in these events with a great deal of success, there are several very successful ESS in this country are present. However I do agree with the suggestion that a cockers small size puts them at a disadvantage in these events.

Are these the types of activities you have in mind for your cocker? I’m only asking b/c several times you have mentioned the trials your father entered with his GSD, now I don’t know much about German Shepards, but I imagine their trials are very different to cocker (gundog) field and retrieving trials??

Lastly, to be very clear about what I did and didn’t say, I did NOT say there are no cockers in this country with working ability. There are, and obviously the level of that working ability/desire/instinct will vary from kennel to kennel and bloodline to bloodline, depending on the breeder’s breeding plan. However, there are not, AFAIK, any “working cockers” in this country, that is dogs who for generation after generation have been breed primarily working ability/desire/instinct. That is very different to saying that cockers breed primarily for other objectives (such as the show ring) don’t retain a certain amount of their working traits.

As I’m am primarily (solely) interested in field work, if I was going to get a cocker, I would follow my friends lead and import a dog from 100% working lines. I believe these dogs would also excel in agility, but would have limited success in the show ring. Which is why in my original post I suggested the need to more clearly focus your primary area of interest.

HTH

[nell77]

Hi there working setters, hey thank you for your MOST valuable input. I have never really had anyone xplain field properly to me and have only read stories of the field work and honestly fell in love with it. I suppose my 'rose coloured glasses was on again, and i thought that i could do the field work, but you have explained probably only a qurter of whats involved and i fear that i dont think i am quite reay for that yet.

possibly the best line of attack is that i get myself to some of these trials and get a feel for it and meet some people who are very active in the sport. Get some REAL knowledge behind me first.

Plus your and Ernys points about the working generation of dog lines in field make sense. I have never owned a spaniel before, and i just really do love them. And i want to not just have a pet but i want to have some fun and partake in some sport with her. When i spoke of my father and his GSD, he was heavily involved in the Obediance and Agility. He worked closely with a good friend of his that was in the Airforce, and he was a dog trainer, as i remember it he was head of his sector and overlooked all the training and dog /handler teams.

i was quite young, but geez i loved those days!!! We acquired a dog from his friend, his name was Rex, that dog was totally amazing.......i remember once dad had him in the kennel on his first nite home and he chewed through the wire netting on the top of the cage and climbed out :D He became my best friend, whenever mum was trying to catch me to give me a belting for something.......i was a bit naughty as a kid i would run to Rex and no-one could come near me!!!

So i suppose i will still get my puppy from my breeder, i really really like her, and i love her babes, they have a most lovely way about them. I will do my obedience, i have some knowledge in this with the time i was able to spend with my dad, give the clicker system a go, don't even know or really understand it, but i am super keen to learn, and visit the show and see if that appeals to me, as i am getting a dog thats of show quality I hope there will be one for me, i am counting down the days, but the breeder told me that you can never really tell right untill about 6-8 weeks fingers crossed

Perhaps when she is 18 months or so, when she has fully developed properly and i have or feel confident that we have what it takes as a teamto partake in some agility..........cause that is fun......Rex could jump through flamming rings of fire :D He used to get so excited when he knew where we were going!!! But hey i think i need to go to quite a few agility trials as well, becuse i am sure all has changed since i was a kid......

Anyways i hope i havnt bored you to tears with my ramble, with these threads i have acquired much information and i feel alot more direction now, i read back over my entries and think how stupid i must have sounded to everyone

Cheers

[Working_Setters]

Hi there working setters, hey thank you for your MOST valuable input.

You're welcome, I'm always happy help somebody get a start in working gundogs. Besides as with all sports, the introduction of new people is the key to our long term survival, so don't feel that you've asked any silly questions, or that you're wasting anybodies time, the truth is we (working gundog people) need you (or lots of new people like you) in our sport.

Best of luck with your Cocker pup, I'm sure that in time he/she will become the very close friend Rex was during youth childhood.

I think your plan to start out with obedience and agility is an excellent idea. All working gundogs require a very high level of obedience, it is the foundation upon which everything else is built, no matter if your hunting, in field trials or retrieving trials, obedience is the key to success. The trick is to obtain that obedience without curbing the dog's desire - I think agility will help in this regard. In addition to which every working cocker needs a very high level of fitness and agility.

I hope you do pursue your interest in working gundogs further. Attending a retrieving trial should be quite easy for you, there are a number held in your area. So get along and have a look, ask lots of questions and see if you think it's for you.

Edited November 8, 2006 by Working_Setters

[Working_Setters]

I forgot to add the follow resources:

The Spaniel Journal is a freely available e-magazine of outstanding quality, it has a diverse range of topics relating to all aspects of "spaniels in the field" including trials, training and hunting. The articles are mainly from American and European authors, although there are several by Aussies also. I highly recommend this outstanding free resource to anybody with any interest in spaniels or field work. Spaniel Journal Click on the name of an author at the bottom of the page to see their article in the current e-magazine, and see the ARCHIVES section for a list of articles that have appeared in previous editions. (Of particular note in the archives section is an article entitled "Field Trialing in Australia" by one of Australia's most successful and knowledgeable working ESS breeders, Rachel Greaves).

See the bookstore for a great selection of spaniel books including the 3 I've recommended below

In addition I would highly recommend the following books

HERE1

HERE2

HERE3

HTH

Edited November 8, 2006 by Working_Setters

[nell77]

ahhh cheers WS.....i will definetly do some homework, i am looking forward to checking out the litriture!!

I feel alot better in myself now having some direction, well catch you around the forum....

[nell77]

I forgot to add the follow resources:

. Spaniel Journal

Hey nice to see an American cocker look ...................well not so prim and proper!!!

Please no-one get offendedby my comment, just never seen an American cocker outside the show ring, he looks Great!

Edited November 9, 2006 by nell77

[smisch]

Both of my guys are from Vi Catley.. Kistenwales

There is 3 Kistenwales dogs out doing agility at the moment.

Thats right I remeber there was a female in the same class as me, she was so good! By the Maverick are you guys demoing at the Sydney Pet and Animal expo this weekend cause I have all the photos of the spaniels and the jack russels sitting on CDs for the next time we see you!

[Lablover]

Well thought out reply Working Setters.

Personally I think, bearing in mind, even with working cocker lines, water attitude and the standard of our retrieving games, in Australia, it would be very unlikely a cocker would be successful at the higher levels.

I am travelling to NZ next month and from corresponding with hunters and trialers over there, they certainly seem to have imported a nice variety of gundogs from England, for example. Looking forward to observing their dogs both field and retrieving.

[Maverick]

Snoopy.. no, not doing the Pet Expo this year. Not sure when I will be back at training. Too much work on at the moment.

Many thanks for the doing the CD, can't wait to see it!

Edited November 9, 2006 by Maverick

[Working_Setters]

I am travelling to NZ next month and from corresponding with hunters and trialers over there, they certainly seem to have imported a nice variety of gundogs from England, for example. Looking forward to observing their dogs both field and retrieving.

I was in NZ earlier this year and had the opportunity to see some retrievers and spaniels in action - enjoyed it a great deal and was particularly impressed by Bob Whitehead and his Cockers.

Rick and Ronnie Smith (of the famous Smith Setters kennel, and two of the best known trainers (particularly of pointing breeds) in the USA, following in the foot steps of their famous pro-trainer father Delmar) have visited NZ to give training seminars several times. Their training methods are very evident in the way a number of Kiwis (both retriever and pointing breed people) train.

It's pretty country, that unlike Oz still receives regular rain. The locals are very hospitable and they have some fine dogs, I know you'll enjoy it.

[Lablover]

Rick and Ronnie Smith (of the famous Smith Setters kennel, and two of the best known trainers (particularly of pointing breeds) in the USA, following in the foot steps of their famous pro-trainer father Delmar) have visited NZ to give training seminars several times. Their training methods are very evident in the way a number of Kiwis (both retriever and pointing breed people) train.

It's pretty country, that unlike Oz still receives regular rain. The locals are very hospitable and they have some fine dogs, I know you'll enjoy it.

I have been in correspondence and telephone contact with Sharon P, who was another US trainer who travelled in NZ with Ric Smith. Greatly enjoyed her observations not only of the dogs but stories of their travels, tourist wise.

My trip, is the result of organising another American trainer to hold seminars in Victoria, Western Australian and NZ.

I will be fun.

[Lablover]

LOL, that will teach me for having time out, from packing to leave for a trial, and visiting DOL.

IT will be fun.

[helen]

Good luck with your puppy, I am sure you will enjoy everything as they are very happy dogs.

Clicker training is perfect for food motivated dogs. The click marks the correct behaviour and means a reward (usually food) has been won. In my opinion it is a great way to train those gundogs who used to be called 'stubborn' but really just needed a more suitable method of training.

Consider tracking as well, it is a great sport which particularly suits gundogs.