Desexing Early Leads To Taller And Hairier Dogs?

[whatevah]

Molasses, your dogs are beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Love the one at the bottom, can I take him/her home? (Just joking). Do you brush your dogs a lot? When I was away I was very bored so started brushing Moses daily, and his coat came up very shiny. Thanx for the cocker photos.

[~Anne~]

I had never noticed a difference in smaller breed dogs but have noticed it a lot in large breeds like Dobes and GSD's that were castrated under 12 months. It was only when my Dobe male, desexed at 9 months grew to a whopping 74cm (much taller than his undesexed litter mates) that I started asking people with tall males what age they had them desexed.

IMO there is some truth to it.

But is it a problem that he is taller? Or is it just owner perception and owner acceptance?

Is it because we all want to say what a perfect specimen our dog is or is there medical reasons that support the thought that dogs should be the same height as their litter mates? Genuine question.

[dogbesotted]

for consideration:

1. http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

2. http://www.petresource.com/Articles%20of%2...n_neutering.htm

3. ROTTWEILER HEALTH ISSUES

Early Spay/Neuter Linked to Osteosarcoma

Research has linked early neutering and spaying before first cycle to significant increases in the risk of osteosarcoma in Rottweilers.

"The researchers found that 14.8% of the Rottweilers studied developed appendicular bone cancer. The relative risk was 1.65 castrated males, 1.34 in spayed females and 1.03 in intact females. The risk of developing bone cancer was significantly higher in animals that were neutered at less than 1 year of age compared with intact animals. Dr. B. C. Beranek, Purdue University"

4. http://www.ivis.org/advances/Concannon/olson/IVIS.pdf.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:MwqORS...=clnk&cd=42

4. There are side effects resulting from prepuberty neutering.... refer to the castrati of the middle ages.

"Although castration did little to damage a castrato's intellect, it did pose serious health and emotional problems. Most castrati suffered from the effects of developmental hypogonadism, including infantile penis and an underdeveloped prostate. They also had more developed subcutaneous fat than the normal male, fat deposits localized on the hips, buttocks and breast areas, fatty deposits on the eyelids, and skin that sometimes appeared wrinkled or swollen. The arms and legs of many castrati were unusually long as compared to the torso (the long bones never stopped growing), which made them look distorted"

( http://wa.essortment.com/castratihistory_rzna.htm )

Cheers

H

[~Anne~]

Thanks for that. I like his summation. Perhaps this is the way to go?

Currently, I have significant concerns with spaying or neutering canine athletes before puberty. But of course, there is the pet overpopulation problem. How can we prevent the production of unwanted dogs while still leaving the gonads to produce the hormones that are so important to canine growth and development? One answer would be to perform vasectomies in males and tubal ligation in females, to be followed after maturity by ovariohysterectomy in females to prevent mammary cancer and pyometra. One possible disadvantage is that vasectomy does not prevent some unwanted behaviors associated with males such as marking and humping. On the other hand, females and neutered males frequently participate in these behaviors too. Really, training is the best solution for these issues. Another possible disadvantage is finding a veterinarian who is experienced in performing these procedures. Nonetheless, some do, and if the procedures were in greater demand, more veterinarians would learn them.

[MolassesLass]

Molasses, your dogs are beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Love the one at the bottom, can I take him/her home? (Just joking). Do you brush your dogs a lot? When I was away I was very bored so started brushing Moses daily, and his coat came up very shiny. Thanx for the cocker photos.

:D Aw shucks, thanks, I think so too! Chloe is the pup at the bottom, she is a nice girl and I think you'd have a fight on your hands with her owners!

Those are all pups from my litter (you can see them all here), I recommend brushing 1-2 times weekly except for shedding times when they should be done daily. Good coat conditioner, good diet and brushing (which releases and spreads skin oil) all help keep coats shiny.

DB, how does a human study relate to dogs?

[dogbesotted]

molasseslass wrote: ""

""DB, how does a human study relate to dogs? ""

I just threw it in for fun ...seriously tho there are side effects to neutering pre puberty even for cats and dogs. It is a matter of recognising these effects ( after all the hormones are the drivers of the growth of each animal etc) and weighing up the benefits against the adverse effects.

I prefer to makes decisions based on all the information rather than just one side. I am not against neutering of dogs and cats. I am also not against responsible persons choosing not to do so.

I know several people who have had their male maremmas neutered pre puberty and they have been much taller in the leg, less msucular and have retained a "puppy coat" .

cheers

H

[MolassesLass]

molasseslass wrote: ""

""DB, how does a human study relate to dogs? ""

I just threw it in for fun

Ah ok then, glad you explained.

seriously tho there are side effects to neutering pre puberty even for cats and dogs.

I guess the question for this thread then is "is 6 months prepuberty for a BC" given the assumption the CTD is wondering what to do with her immenently arriving new pup.

Edited November 5, 2006 by molasseslass

[Livi]

The problem with a discussion like this on DOL is that pretty much all of the regular posters are highly responsible and well informed dog owners.

The idiots are weeded out pretty quickly when they find posts like "I'm looking for a stud dog, CKCS, Maltese or Cocker Spaniel to mate with my Mini Poodle" are NOT welcome

However the vast majority of the dog owning public are NOT as well informed or responsible...they will not make sure their bitch is secure not only from getting OUT but from other dogs getting in.

They are not willing to pay (in NSW) $150 to register an entire dog and then go and desex later when the dog is more mature.

They are not experienced enough to care properly for a pregnant bitch, deal with whelping and raising a litter and finding good homes for them..if they do have the resources to provide proper care they probably don't want to use those resources for that purpose..and then end up paying to desex their bitch later so it doesn't happen again.

They do not want their boy dog going nuts trying to get over, under, or through the fence because the bitch next door is in season, they don't want to pay the vet bills when he gets hurt trying, they don't want to deal with the complaints if he spends days howling and carrying on because he is too much of a sook to hurt himself trying and they don't want to deal with the angry owner of the bitch if he succeeds.

Their dogs are not canine athletes, they are dogs, they play ball, go walkies, and maybe know a few tricks like "shake" and "beg".

Fact is while there are valid arguments for and against...for the vast majority of dogs out there pre puberty desexing IS the best option.

I have also been told my Dobermann is leggier and not as deep in the chest as he would probably have been if left entire and I don't give a hoot

He is not "funny looking" or inferior it is just that even if I did get him some fake testicles and snuck him into the ring at the next Royal he wouldn't be coming out with any ribbons...well he shouldn't but who knows in the fickle world of dog showing..stranger things have probably happened :D

Edited November 5, 2006 by sunny70

[dogbesotted]

The links i posted were both for and against ( maybe) .

I strongly beleive in choice..BUT All rescues that leave me are neutered. Have never had pups go through me..( one actually now that i recall who went to a friend entier and was desexed at 7 months).

It irks me slightly that many in favour of juvenile neutering refuse to acknowledge that there are some effects that go along with the neutering. It has a major hormonal effect... which has flow effects both positive and negative on the entier animal. For most thoughtful ppl the positive effects far outweigh the negative but that does not mean the negatives do not exist.

edited to add: I too dont give a hoot if the dog is leggier or less deep chested or if it may retain a juvenile coat.

I guess if you wanted a baritone bark ......you would be disappointed

Edited November 5, 2006 by dogbesotted

[morgan]

I don't appreciate some of the psuedo-scientific propaganda and conspiracy theories you spout in your anti-desexing campaign. I don't appreciate you telling us that dogs that are desexed have awful incorrect coats. A different coat is not an awful coat. If you are only talking about one breed then say that, otherwise you do appear to be talking bullshit.

I WAS talking about my breed - apologise if I didn't make myself clear - my post started "In my breed" - you cut that part out in your quote.

Where have I said I am anti-desexing? I repeatedly agree that many dogs should be desexed, just not early :D

conspiracy theories? wtf?

pseudo-scientific propaganda? Have you read the scientific references?

[Livi]

Are you saying my dog barks like a girl ??

Try climbing my fence and he will disprove that theory

[~Anne~]

I'm not sure why there is even debate.

Doesn't this (below) give an alternative that satisfies both sides????

Currently, I have significant concerns with spaying or neutering canine athletes before puberty. But of course, there is the pet overpopulation problem. How can we prevent the production of unwanted dogs while still leaving the gonads to produce the hormones that are so important to canine growth and development? One answer would be to perform vasectomies in males and tubal ligation in females, to be followed after maturity by ovariohysterectomy in females to prevent mammary cancer and pyometra. One possible disadvantage is that vasectomy does not prevent some unwanted behaviors associated with males such as marking and humping. On the other hand, females and neutered males frequently participate in these behaviors too. Really, training is the best solution for these issues. Another possible disadvantage is finding a veterinarian who is experienced in performing these procedures. Nonetheless, some do, and if the procedures were in greater demand, more veterinarians would learn them.

Obviously there would be 'for' and 'against' for performing a second operation and so I guess this owuld mean weighing up the pros and cons and incidence of developing mammary cancer and pyometra.

[MolassesLass]

I WAS talking about my breed - apologise if I didn't make myself clear - my post started "In my breed" - you cut that part out in your quote.

Where have I said I am anti-desexing? I repeatedly agree that many dogs should be desexed, just not early :D

conspiracy theories? wtf?

pseudo-scientific propaganda? Have you read the scientific references?

Knowing what your breed is though Morgan and without being more specific, your breed is not the norm. The weight of the effect of the issues within your breed is different to the weight in many if not the majority, of other breeds.

When people post asking for specific times on desexing it is rarely questioned by anyone what breed it is, what the intended purpose of the dog is nor any questions to hear the ability of the owner to deal with an entire dog in the meantime. What happens instead is sometimes unnessecary scare-mongering about desexing or harsh judgement of not desexing.

As the article on canine athletes says towards the end, each situation needs to be assessed on it's own merits and continued posting of our own personal decision for our own personal situations is never going to be as useful, correct or balanced as individual assessing would be.

JMO.

Doesn't this (below) give an alternative that satisfies both sides????

It does, if the procedures are available and two operations aren't considered more of an issue.

Edited November 6, 2006 by molasseslass

[jesomil]

When i was grooming, i noticed a pronounced difference in some breeds coats when they were desexed.

Cockers are one of them. You can tell a desexed cocker from a mile away. BUT, as a pet it doesnt matter. You can just clip off the hair and its fine. There is a big difference though. It is not every breed obviously but just certain types. Maybe just the ones that are traditionally stripped.

I had an afghan in a full coat that i had desexed at 2 1/2. Her coat became unmanageable after that and i started clipping her off. It became so thick.

The pros of having a desexed pet far outweigh the cons of some coats for PET owners.

You can also generally pick out a male that has been desexed young from a distance too. Their build is different. Desexed males tend to be a bit taller, with a narrower chest, less blocky head etc.

Everyday at the park i call my dog to walk with me when i see an entire male at a distance. Desexed ones doesnt matter. I havent failed yet in being able to pick the entire ones.

I cant tell the difference by looks with a desexed bitch but i have seen behaviour changed when desexed as an adult.

I am very glad we have the choice of how we keep our dogs though. I keep my boy entire as i need him that way. My girl is desexed as she is a pet.

I just wish there was a way to enforce desexing upon all the idiots out there that are doing the wrong thing.

[dogbesotted]

Are you saying my dog barks like a girl ??

Try climbing my fence and he will disprove that theory

LOLs. Just trying for a bit of humour.

but was he neutered at 6 - 8 weeks????

[dogbesotted]

On further thought:

Obviously puberty is at different ages depending upon the size of the breed. Perhaps that is why with large and giant breeds the secondary effects ( note secondary effects) are more noticible with the bigger breeds.

Cheers

H

[morgan]

I'm not sure why there is even debate.

Doesn't this (below) give an alternative that satisfies both sides????

Currently, I have significant concerns with spaying or neutering canine athletes before puberty. But of course, there is the pet overpopulation problem. How can we prevent the production of unwanted dogs while still leaving the gonads to produce the hormones that are so important to canine growth and development? One answer would be to perform vasectomies in males and tubal ligation in females, to be followed after maturity by ovariohysterectomy in females to prevent mammary cancer and pyometra. One possible disadvantage is that vasectomy does not prevent some unwanted behaviors associated with males such as marking and humping. On the other hand, females and neutered males frequently participate in these behaviors too. Really, training is the best solution for these issues. Another possible disadvantage is finding a veterinarian who is experienced in performing these procedures. Nonetheless, some do, and if the procedures were in greater demand, more veterinarians would learn them.

Obviously there would be 'for' and 'against' for performing a second operation and so I guess this owuld mean weighing up the pros and cons and incidence of developing mammary cancer and pyometra.

This is the solution I have been recommending the entire time, although I believe hysterectomy, leaving ovaries intact, to be a much better option as many people can't handle the mess and dog-magnet qualities of an in season bitch. This also removes the risk of pyometra.

Because I have been recommending this option for larger breeds for over a year, I stand accused of running an anti-desexing campaign.

[ness]

Well I thought since CTD was posting this and kind of presuming as ML said in relation to BCs - my observations from our girl. She was desexed at nearly 7 months - think it was actually 6 months 3 weeks. She has a straight BC coat, apparently a very nice coat or so I have been told by those that know. She hasn't got a lot of coat but then she is female and for your information she is 46.5cm so at the bottom of breed standard as far as height goes. I have been told that getting a male desexed early actually reduces the amount of coat they carry because they need the further hormones to develop the big manes in particular without the additional hormones they develop coats much more like the females.

[~Anne~]

Because I have been recommending this option for larger breeds for over a year, I stand accused of running an anti-desexing campaign.

Maybe it appears that that you are running an anti-desexing campaign. Perhaps you should learn to articulate better.

[Skipy]

Why is it when people think with their own heads rather than follow the majority they have to be accused of something bad...

I have NEVER seen more pro-desexing campaining than on this forum, yet nobody seems to be bothered by it.

I am all FOR people desexing their dogs if they know pros and cons of it, the reality is that very few people that DO desex their dogs know the WHOLE STORY, mainly because of this political correctness of desexing.