Desexing Early Leads To Taller And Hairier Dogs?

[Working_Setters]

I'm not sure why there is even debate.

Doesn't this (below) give an alternative that satisfies both sides????

Currently, I have significant concerns with spaying or neutering canine athletes before puberty. But of course, there is the pet overpopulation problem. How can we prevent the production of unwanted dogs while still leaving the gonads to produce the hormones that are so important to canine growth and development? One answer would be to perform vasectomies in males and tubal ligation in females, to be followed after maturity by ovariohysterectomy in females to prevent mammary cancer and pyometra. One possible disadvantage is that vasectomy does not prevent some unwanted behaviors associated with males such as marking and humping. On the other hand, females and neutered males frequently participate in these behaviors too. Really, training is the best solution for these issues. Another possible disadvantage is finding a veterinarian who is experienced in performing these procedures. Nonetheless, some do, and if the procedures were in greater demand, more veterinarians would learn them.

Obviously there would be 'for' and 'against' for performing a second operation and so I guess this owuld mean weighing up the pros and cons and incidence of developing mammary cancer and pyometra.

I agree, below is part of a post I wrote on a different thread last week. I don't understand why this option is not offered. I'm not a vet, so can't speak about the difficulty of performing these operations on dogs, but I do know that ferrets are regularly vasectomised (female ferrets, once coming into season remain dangeriously swollen until mated, vasectomised males are used when no kits (baby ferrets) are wanted), so surely if vasectomises are performed on ferrets, they should/could be perfromed on dogs

Sometime last week WS wrote:

It is frequently claimed in these discussions that many male dog owners value the masculinity (physique - including testis, behaviour, hormone profile etc) of their intact male dogs. Why then do we insist that these dogs be desexed? Wouldn't vasectomising the dog be just as effective in helping to reduce the unwanted puppy problem and at the same time allow male dog owners to retain traits they value in their male canine companions. In addition many of the male owners themselves are likely to have been vasectomised, or know somebody who is, and so be more amenable to having this operation performed on their canine mate.

I understand that initially vets may have to be trained to perform this operation, which will mean initally increased costs, but even at twice the price I think it would be an option many pet owners would gladly pay for.

[Skipy]

We had this vasectomy and histerectomy discussion before and from what I remember few reasons on why are: histerectomy in very young dogs is more risky (longer anestetic time) and for vasectomy, probably more expensive and lack of vets that would do it (why do it, when desexing is easier for them to perform).

Again, I think that way of sterilization would be PERFECT solution for EVERY side of this argument...

Edited November 6, 2006 by Skipy

[whatevah]

Thanx this thread is starting to have some good discussion. Both my male dogs have very small male parts. My toller gets mistaken for a girl. But I did hear if you are planning on doing agility it is better to wait a bit longer. I started this thread as I have had a couple of people tell the theory about the longer legs etc. But it is hard to say, because Moses father is above average so of course I am likely to get a tall toller, and that is what I wanted.

[elmo_em ♀]

I was asking this question the other week because Id had people tell me this about elmo and that I shouldn't have gotten him desexed before he was at least 12 months old (they were trainers who told me this) Mixed views on here too means I still havne't made up my mind! Im not planning to show elmo or anything so it doesn't bother me as long as hes happy and healthy! He is in fact a lot taller than his brothers who I don't believe have been desexed yet. So it must be true??

[KOE]

My male Vizsla was desexed at 3 years and he was oversized/tall, maybe something to do with the breeding hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

My friend has a huge male shepherd which is not desexed so it must be the breeding.

[KOE]

Of my two desexed cockers, my boy was desexed at 6 months. His coat was lovely and flat prior, but within a couple of months it turned to complete wool. Will try to show some before and after pics. It is quite dramatic. It is common for this to happen with cockers.

He has also grown to about an inch above standard. Not that that is a problem, and it is something I have seen with entire dogs and bitches as well... growing too tall.

My girl was desexed at four... her coat used to be lovely and flat, but several months after speying it is now wayward, thick, and wooly like my boy's.

What a load of crap.

Desexed bitches keep their coats and dont drop as much because there is no hormone changes RE: seasons

Not a load of crap at all. Please don't make statements like this, unless you have the knowledge and experience to back them up.

Excuse Me: I have shown dogs for a very long time and I have also previously bred dogs, when my show dogs are retired or dont like the ring they are desexed.

1 male Vizsla, oversized to begin with, coat exactly the same till death parted us, desexed at 3years of age.

1 female Vizsla desexed at 1 year because she hated the show ring, no changed body shape no coat change correct size, and incontinent.

1 female boxer desexed because of Pyro correct size, no coat change desexed at 13 months.

1 male Boxer cryptorchid desexed at 6 months 1 teste in leg other never found, correct boxer size no change in coat died from cancer.

1 female shepherd correct size multi BIS winner so far no change in coat, and no bloody hair all over the place, desexed at 5 years old.

1 male Mutt juvenile desexed, yes he is hairy and yes he is tall but he is a wolfhound cross so one would expect him to be both.

So maybe do you think I may have some knowledge and some experience, or maybe not because I do not conform to your way of thinking.

Some people are so doggedly single minded, look outside of the circle will you and do some studying of the subject, like I have.

[morgan]

1 male Vizsla, oversized to begin with, coat exactly the same till death parted us, desexed at 3years of age.

1 female Vizsla desexed at 1 year because she hated the show ring, no changed body shape no coat change correct size, and incontinent.

1 female boxer desexed because of Pyro correct size, no coat change desexed at 13 months.

1 male Boxer cryptorchid desexed at 6 months 1 teste in leg other never found, correct boxer size no change in coat died from cancer.

1 female shepherd correct size multi BIS winner so far no change in coat, and no bloody hair all over the place, desexed at 5 years old.

1 male Mutt juvenile desexed, yes he is hairy and yes he is tall but he is a wolfhound cross so one would expect him to be both.

So maybe do you think I may have some knowledge and some experience, or maybe not because I do not conform to your way of thinking.

Some people are so doggedly single minded, look outside of the circle will you and do some studying of the subject, like I have.

:p Why would shorthaired dogs change coat when desexed? It is the coated breeds that frequently change - hounds, gundogs and terriers in particular. Most coated working breeds don't seem to change either. Having had a lot to do with desexed working breeds, I haven't found it reduces shedding, unfortunately!

Breeds like viszlas and boxers are pretty well fully grown by those ages, so of course their height wouldn't be affected by desexing.

[Toohey]

1 male Vizsla, oversized to begin with, coat exactly the same till death parted us, desexed at 3years of age.

1 female Vizsla desexed at 1 year because she hated the show ring, no changed body shape no coat change correct size, and incontinent.

1 female boxer desexed because of Pyro correct size, no coat change desexed at 13 months.

1 male Boxer cryptorchid desexed at 6 months 1 teste in leg other never found, correct boxer size no change in coat died from cancer.

1 female shepherd correct size multi BIS winner so far no change in coat, and no bloody hair all over the place, desexed at 5 years old.

1 male Mutt juvenile desexed, yes he is hairy and yes he is tall but he is a wolfhound cross so one would expect him to be both.

So maybe do you think I may have some knowledge and some experience, or maybe not because I do not conform to your way of thinking.

Some people are so doggedly single minded, look outside of the circle will you and do some studying of the subject, like I have.

No, I am not single minded, and I would not make blanket statements like the one you made here. I only speak of the breed I have experience with.

What a load of crap.

Desexed bitches keep their coats and dont drop as much because there is no hormone changes RE: seasons

which IS in fact a load of crap.

I notice you have not commented on the pics I have posted of my MALE desexed dog. Do you think not having seasons is the reason he has so much coat?

What do you think of the difference in his coat after desexing?

It is interesting to note you have not mentioned any coated breeds in your repertoire there, so no, I don't think you have the experience or knowledge to make such blanket statements.

[Toohey]

A couple of threads here from a cocker forum discuss the changes in cocker coats after desexing.

http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/ind...hp?topic=9555.0

http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=174.0

Edited November 6, 2006 by Toohey

[KOE]

1 male Vizsla, oversized to begin with, coat exactly the same till death parted us, desexed at 3years of age.

1 female Vizsla desexed at 1 year because she hated the show ring, no changed body shape no coat change correct size, and incontinent.

1 female boxer desexed because of Pyro correct size, no coat change desexed at 13 months.

1 male Boxer cryptorchid desexed at 6 months 1 teste in leg other never found, correct boxer size no change in coat died from cancer.

1 female shepherd correct size multi BIS winner so far no change in coat, and no bloody hair all over the place, desexed at 5 years old.

1 male Mutt juvenile desexed, yes he is hairy and yes he is tall but he is a wolfhound cross so one would expect him to be both.

So maybe do you think I may have some knowledge and some experience, or maybe not because I do not conform to your way of thinking.

Some people are so doggedly single minded, look outside of the circle will you and do some studying of the subject, like I have.

No, I am not single minded, and I would not make blanket statements like the one you made here. I only speak of the breed I have experience with.

What a load of crap.

Desexed bitches keep their coats and dont drop as much because there is no hormone changes RE: seasons

which IS in fact a load of crap.

I notice you have not commented on the pics I have posted of my MALE desexed dog. Do you think not having seasons is the reason he has so much coat?

What do you think of the difference in his coat after desexing?

It is interesting to note you have not mentioned any coated breeds in your repertoire there, so no, I don't think you have the experience or knowledge to make such blanket statements.

I have had coated dogs as well. The male viz if you read it properly was oversized to begin with, shepherds have coats too you know and I see desexed dogs every day of my life which have been done young and old, maybe your cocker was meant to have a thicker coat as my viz was meant to be oversized. Doesnt really matter does it as I have my opinion and you have yours, I had a English springer spaniel that never got the coat she should have had and she was not desexed. So I reckon it depends on the dog.

[dogbesotted]

I suspect we are all talking around in circles...

The most unplanned effects of neutering ( males or females) are as a result of very early neutering.

I would think that logically the hormones have done their bit growth and development wise when a the dog is desexed after 1 year of age, even possibly by 6 months. The retention of puppy coat tends to be an effect of early neutering ( ie 6-8 weeks) .

I have all females spayed here ( out of 6 bitches its the really bitchy one ( Fat Mags and Angelina) who are porky...LOL They are half sisters too. Maybe its genetic. the others are fine.

Lucky is desexed male....no changes in his coat. He was desexed at around 12-18 months I

think.

H

[Jed]

isavis

Excuse Me: I have shown dogs for a very long time and I have also previously bred dogs, when my show dogs are retired or dont like the ring they are desexed.

1 male Vizsla, oversized to begin with, coat exactly the same till death parted us, desexed at 3years of age.

1 female Vizsla desexed at 1 year because she hated the show ring, no changed body shape no coat change correct size, and incontinent.

Well, one would hardly expect a short haired dog to suddenly develop a long coat!! :p

1 female boxer desexed because of Pyro correct size, no coat change desexed at 13 months.

1 male Boxer cryptorchid desexed at 6 months 1 teste in leg other never found, correct boxer size no change in coat died from cancer.

1 female shepherd correct size multi BIS winner so far no change in coat, and no bloody hair all over the place, desexed at 5 years old.

The shepherd and f. boxer were not exactly juvenile speys, were they?

As to the male boxer, he was not exactly neutered at 8 weeks either - and it may be that he retained a testicle, so would show no changes from desexing at all.

1 male Mutt juvenile desexed, yes he is hairy and yes he is tall but he is a wolfhound cross so one would expect him to be both.

Don't quite know what you mean by "juvenile desexed" - but if it was prior to puberty, one would expect him to be hairy and tall .... naturally, but he may be so because of genetics.

NO ONE that I can see is against neutering per se - what most of the breeders here are against is neutering, BY LAW at 8 weeks.

The only way to ascertain whether juvenile desexing does cause taller, hairier dogs is by checking siblings.

98% of my (long haired) breed is desexed following sale as pets. Most are done prior to 6 months, but after 3 months. Every single one is taller and hairier than undesexed brothers and sisters. From one particular litter, the brother (desexed at 4 months) is twice the size of his undesexed sister - which may simply be that he threw to his bigger father, and she threw to her smaller mother - BUT he has the most enormous coat.

My problem is that pet owners have problems dealing with the coat. Clipping some hairy breeds leads to grooming problems. Pet owners choose a breed on numerous things - size, temperament, personality, and ease of keeping, which includes grooming. I tell them the dog will need grooming 2 a week. Then they have the dog desexed, and it grows 3 times more hair that the breed average.

It grows more hair than the photos in books, and on the websites.

Guess where the turn to complain?

Yep. It's my fault.

Now I tell them what will happen with the coat and desexing, and they then know what to expect.

So, I have now worked out a regime that most of them can cope with.

Exactly the same thing happens with Cocker Spaniels - to the point where breeders tell responsible pet owners not to desex under 12 months - and why.

If you work in a shelter, you see the bad side of dog ownership, and you naturally want to stop the slaughter.

I have lots of empathy with this. I want to stop the slaughter too, as do most responsible breeders.

However, making mandatory something which causes your average responsible pet owner a lot of grief is not the way to go. And, if some dogs develop other problems following early desexing, how many will then be abandoned? How many irate owners will return to the breeder, apportioning blame?

I am extremely careful where my pups go. Always have been. I am extremely careful about what I breed. I am objective and honest with potential buyers about the good points and problems with the breed. I offer lifetime help.

I assess potential buyers extremely carefully. And - I get it right 99% of the time. In the past 20 years, I have sold 4 to homes I am not happy with, although they looked ok at the time. None of these dogs have ended up in the pound.

I fail to see how anyone on this forum can accuse people like Morgan and others, who only want the best for the dogs they have spent years and endless time and money breeding, of being anti neutering, and adding to the abandoned dog problem.

And who are only trying to ensure that the pups they planned and produce go on to fulfill their full potential.

People who buy a speyed pup from a pound do not bitch as loudly or as long about problems as they do when they pay a lot of money from a reputable breeder for a pup from good, and healthy lines, which are health checked.

They pay more because they want the best ......... they don't want a dog which has problems caused by early speying.

[Toohey]

Doesnt really matter does it as I have my opinion and you have yours,

Except this is not about opinions. I am sharing knowledge that comes from my experience with my chosen breed. And I am not just talking about the dogs in my own yard.

That's what this board SHOULD be about. Sharing knowledge. NOT sledging others because you think you know better than them, or because you don't agree with their "opinion".

[KOE]

I was not sledging and I never said I knew better, and my opinion differs from yours, it does not make me right nor does it make you right. I think I may leave it there, as I do not want to argue with anyone.

[Sayreovi]

I desexed Nova a few months ago and while he hasnt grown his coat has changed and it is much thicker as well as growing longer and woolier, if thats the word, in places it hadnt before like around his elbows and on his thighs.

Nova was desexed when he was 3 years old and his coat definitely changed.

I however dont think its a blanket rule with younger dogs, how will you know if they would have turned out that way if you had or hadnt desexed them. If they are tall and hairy how would you know they wouldnt have done that if they hadnt been desexed.

[2tollers]

However every dog is different and I have been told that my flatcoat Josh is built like a brick sh@#t house, probably due to flyball.

I can vouch for that. Josh can demolish a bench with his skull, never mind the rest of him. :p

[Cordelia]

I don't know what folks are getting so heated about.

Most spaniels, Retrievers (obviously not Labs), setters etc grow more coat once they are desexed REGARDLESS of the age they are done. Anyone who has had one of these breeds in rescue long enough would have seen the difference before and after. I don't see why owners would get upset about it.... if they don't want to brush the dog every day, get them shaved off or trimmed. :p

Diet plays a role too though. Well, with the dogs here it does anyway, most likely due to several factors, including desexing... in most cases.

Our Grandma Kate (CKCS) is 11yrs old and not desexed and she has a copious coat that knots dreadfully if not kept in check (I shave her in summer for comfort). I'm sure the amount she'd been bred by her previous owner and the obviously poor diet she had been on did her coat no favours, but since she's been living with us, her coat thickness and length has at least doubled.... as I said, desexing has nothing to do with her coat.

[Guest Clover]

Elvis was desexed at 7 months, has very little coat, is built like a girl (Dont tell him :p ) & is alot softer looking in the head.. narrow, i think he is about 19" at the shoulder etc. Tinny who is a full litter mate was desexed at 12 months, has alot more coat than El has and is 17 & 3/4" at the shoulder.

My Mums Chihuahua (Maybe x) is huge for his breed, weighs in at about 5 1/2KGs, is tall and leggy and was desexed at 7 months... oh and his bloody coat is always shedding no matter how much he is groomed.

And yep Josh is huge .

[Tim'sMum]

I can't imagine it making any difference whatsoever to a female's health......although I have heard that desexing after a female comes into season does tend to make them more prone to put on weight. Not sure of the truth in that either?

You "can't imagine"? :p Have you looked at ANY of the scientific studies posted here over the last year on desexing? Or posts from members who have had bitches with lifelong health problems and constant medication because of desexing? Or even those bitches that died as a result of being desexed?

Morgan..........they are just that......'scientific studies' and not proven facts. Any number of people can do scientific studies and spout any number of half baked theories without it being proven.

I well understand 'scientific research' having had a background in science. My own daughter's Paediatric Neurologist tells me her Epilepsy is NOT hormone related because there is no 'PROVEN" correllation between Epilepsy and hormones.....yet agrees that the onset and progression of her Epilepsy is indeed indicative of being related to hormone activity.

My point.....unless it is proven every scientific study is theory.

Bitches and puppies die during whelping, particularly young bitches who have a litter after their first season. Male dogs can get out when there is an undesexed female in season in the vicinity and get killed on roads.

Sorry morgan.......your theories don't stand up.....NOT desexing is irresponsible.

Edited November 6, 2006 by Tim'sMum

[Working_Setters]

I can't imagine it making any difference whatsoever to a female's health......although I have heard that desexing after a female comes into season does tend to make them more prone to put on weight. Not sure of the truth in that either?

You "can't imagine"? :p Have you looked at ANY of the scientific studies posted here over the last year on desexing? Or posts from members who have had bitches with lifelong health problems and constant medication because of desexing? Or even those bitches that died as a result of being desexed?

Morgan..........they are just that......'scientific studies' and not proven facts. Any number of people can do scientific studies and spout any number of half baked theories without it being proven.

I well understand 'scientific research' having had a background in science. My own daughter's Paediatric Neurologist tells me her Epilepsy is NOT hormone related because there is no 'PROVEN" correllation between Epilepsy and hormones.....yet agrees that the onset and progression of her Epilepsy is indeed indicative of being related to hormone activity.

My point.....unless it is proven every scientific study is theory.

Bitches and puppies die during whelping, particularly young bitches who have a litter after their first season. Male dogs can get out when there is an undesexed female in season in the vicinity and get killed on roads.

Sorry morgan.......your theories don't stand up.....NOT desexing is irresponsible.

Having been a medical researcher for 15 years, I have an extensive scientific background, and can tell you, strictly speaking, the number one rule of scienctific research is "you can never prove a hypothesis and must always be willing to discard or amend any "fact" in the light of new evidence". There can and are very high degrees of correlation and certainty, but that's very different to a proven fact.

IMO it's the people that don't house their dogs properly that are being irresponsible. That male dogs can get out b/c there is a bitch in heat in the vicinity means just one thing, "the male dog could get out" and was therefore inapproprately housed. Likely it could have also got out to chase a cat, and that would mean the same thing, inapproprately housed.

If people are so irresponsible as to fail to house their dogs properly, then I really have to question if they should own a dog at all.