A Plastic Prong Collar

[haven]

The question I pose for you guys is this: Is there a need to ware a maximum impact training device on a TRAINED dog on a lesurely walk.

Sure, if you understand that training is never over and an opportunity might present itself at any time.

[poodlefan]

Dogdude:

Is there a need to ware a maximum impact training device on a TRAINED dog on a lesurely walk.

If you cannot think of any situation where physical control of your dog might be an issue, then sure, leave it off. However, I cannot completely control my walking environment. If I owned a very large breed dog where physical control was an issue, I'd be leaving the device on.

Having heard of 65kg + dogs taking their owners grass skiing on haltis, I think that sometimes that level of control (whether used or not) is a safety issue. Remember too that unlike a halti, there is no aversive affect from a prong if the dog is NOT pulling.

Edited November 14, 2006 by poodlefan

[cassie]

Of course the most effective method of training loose lead walking is never to let the dog learn to pull. Once you're dealing with a habitual puller you are probably going to have to exert some method of physical control while teaching the dog to walk on a loose lead.

Hi poodlefan,

Serious question here - is this possible to teach? Say from a young age, can you teach your pup to just NEVER pull on the lead, and therefore it will never need a correction?

I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, I'm genuinely interested in your answer for when I get my new pup.

Thanks, Cassie

[Erny]

As for the Prong............I don't think they're entirely illegal??? I think there is a clause in the legislation that says the collars can be used as an aid for "medical" reasons (?) such as if the dog has a spinal problem.......

Ummmmm, in Victoria, WnD, I don't think so. It's a total ban.

From the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Regulations 1997:

7D. Use of pronged collars prohibited

A person must not use a pronged collar on any animal.

Penalty: 5 penalty units

Edited November 14, 2006 by Erny

[oonga]

Erny,

what is a penalty unit??

what does it actually mean? is it a monetary fine or do you have an X amount of penalty units then they confiscate the animal??

sorry to sound naive.

[Erny]

Erny, what is a penalty unit??

Fine in this case = $5,000.00.

Hi Oonga

Edited November 14, 2006 by Erny

[Rom]

Yup prongs should be legalised BUT for the right people by the right people. no selling in pet stores or online to anyone who just wants one. Proper supervision to make sure the small minority of numbnuts out there dont ruin it for the rest of us.

I'd actually like to see the same for both check chains and halti's or gentle leaders. After all, they are potentially more dangerous IMO.

yeah I saw that which I thought quite amusing.... how can u sell a clicker AND a prong collar in the same company...... seems to go a little in opposite directions don't you think?!?!

There seems to be some polarization to opposite ends of the spectrum. If you use any corrections or aversives, then it is seen that you are a correction based trainer that uses no positives. But that just isn't the case in many instances. For example, I never use a correction if I'm trying to teach a dog to do something new. I never use a correction if I have the dogs focus, I make the assumption that the dog wants to do what I want, but it just doesn't understand what I want, or the dog doesn't have the same value on the reward as I do. In these instances I'm purely positive all the way...lure and reward, clickers, you name it.

Secondly, many who make the above polarizations often fail to realise that the correct timing of both the correction and the reward can actually improve the dogs understanding and lift the confidence in a soft dog. I try to never apply a correction unless I can also deliver a reward within seconds of the correction taking place. Its kind of like the old maxim, don't issue a command that you can't enforce. I don't issue a correction unless I can set it up that a reward will follow. This has a lot to do with starting training in a low distraction environment then gradually adding distractions. I've also been known to do an almost gymnastic tumble to help my dog avoid an impending correction that I knew she didn't deserve when she got leads tangled with another handlers dog and that handler was big on dishing out corrections and dragging her dog around by the neck.

Hey Leo - have you ever considered that the corrections you used - verbal or/and phsyiscal were TOO HIGH thats why your dog shut down?

That's what I was thinking - I read somewhere that if you can't get your dog back into drive after a correction (whether you're in food drive, pack drive, prey drive, whatever), then your correction was way too hard.

I was also thinking that maybe your dog is confused about why he is getting corrected, and doesn't know how to avoid the correction. I don't think any trainer here would recommend that you correct your dog for a mistake during training, not if the dog was genuinely trying to complete the exercise. All that would give you would be an upset or scared dog.

Edited to add - I'm not saying that you should correct your dog if you don't want to or don't need to, I'm just trying to suggest a few reasons why you might have got the reaction you did from your dog.

Once again, also got to consider reward and reward timing here.

[poodlefan]

Of course the most effective method of training loose lead walking is never to let the dog learn to pull. Once you're dealing with a habitual puller you are probably going to have to exert some method of physical control while teaching the dog to walk on a loose lead.

Hi poodlefan,

Serious question here - is this possible to teach? Say from a young age, can you teach your pup to just NEVER pull on the lead, and therefore it will never need a correction?

I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, I'm genuinely interested in your answer for when I get my new pup.

Thanks, Cassie

In short ... yes. And I have the dog to prove it. Darcy loose lead walks beautifully and he was taught that if he put pressure on his collar we ceased to move forward. He simply doesn't pull. He's been taught so well that a "restrained recall" where the dog is encouraged to strain towards the handler to get a quick release (used in agility training) simply doesn't work. If anyone restrains him he doesn't resist. I think its as much to do with who he is as his training but yep, it can be done.

So from day 1 with your new pup, you encourage him to be where you want him to be, reward for the relaxation of the lead (a great use of the clicker) and never let him positively reward himself for pulling (which is why dogs do it more and more - its rewarding). Of course, you need to teach this to the pup by himself.

Edited November 14, 2006 by poodlefan