A Plastic Prong Collar

[leopuppy04]

Hey Leo - have you ever considered that the corrections you used - verbal or/and phsyiscal were TOO HIGH thats why your dog shut down?

Crossed my mind yes, but I don't have all that much strength to begin with and they were tiny corrections. I'm talking itty bitty pops. Anyway - why would it matter if I 'corrected' my dog with a chain or not?? Like I said I want my dog not to be afraid of making mistakes which is why I prefer using positive methods. Half of the time the 'mistakes' are something that I want. I want my dog to be doing what he does because he *wants* to and not because he is afraid of the aversive that may follow should he not comply. I like the way to train and the way I feel when I do it. When I use correction training I always come out grumpy because i'm looking for the mistakes and not praising enough. When I train positive I look for the right behaviours and have a great time because 'when you look for the good you will find it'. Sure, it may not affect everyone that way but that is how it affects me. Like I said, it is just my opinion and unless someone asks which way should I train my dog, I don't tell anyone how they should train their dogs nor do I expect everyone to train their dogs the way I do simply because I prefer it. Each to its own. Doesn't mean that you love your dogs any less or any more by the way you train . You can see just as many mistakes with people using 'positive' methods as you do with people using 'corrective' methods. It is not the theory that is wrong but the handler not having enough information about it..... I like the way I train

ETA: coz it made no sense

Edited November 14, 2006 by leopuppy04

[haven]

My dog does NOT bounce back from corrections like most dogs do. He shuts down and refuses to work again. Some may say work through this

That's crazy, don't work through it, use what works!

I ment to explain in my previous post regarding your comment on how would the plastic tip prongs work as well; the aversive comes not from the tips of the prong, but from the squeezing sensation created between the prongs when pressure is applied. You will find that even if you were to press bare metal prongs into your skin quite firmly you cannot create pain.

[dogdude]

Hi Myszka

While personally, I wouldn't have a problem, I cant see why you would want to keep one on a trained dog. They are after all, a training tool, not an accesessory. When I walk my dog I use a flat collar, as he is trained. I dont have confidence issues therefore dont need the check chain needed to get him to that level. When I walk him, I choose not to train him, or correct him, as it is his lesure time. When its training time, on it goes. If my dog was unreliable while on a walk, I would be looking at the effectiveness of my training methods.

[Tapferhund]

Firstly I have to say how shocked I am there are soooo many ignorant ratbag trainers/instructors out there telling people their dogs are untrainable or should be PTS because they themselves don't have all the answers for ALL types of dogs and their problems.

As for the Prong............I don't think they're entirely illegal??? I think there is a clause in the legislation that says the collars can be used as an aid for "medical" reasons (?) such as if the dog has a spinal problem.......which is a total contradiction to the supposed reasons why the collars were banned(?) in the first place.

That idiot Hugely Wirthless got the collars banned(?) due to his ignorance, HE thought they looked cruel and awful , BUT , most Chiro Vets recommend the collars because they are less stressful on the spine of the dog when the dog is out walking.

I have a friend whose dog (GSD) had a hemilaminectomy(spelling?) .....had half of a disc removed from his spine. When her dog fully recovered she used a Prong to walk him as he use to pull like a tank on a slip chain which was doing more damage with the pressure of his pulling,causing him pain and him not enjoying the walk.......but on the prong he he never suffered pain and enjoyed his walks everyday. He lived a further two years than was expected.

I also had to use a prong because of a slipped disc problem with my little Mini Foxie. Several times a year I would have to take her to the Vet who would put her on cortisone and tell me to keep her confined to a cage for some weeks. After seeing a chiro Vet ,he recommended I use a prong on her (and yes they do come in "small" size) for her walks which I did and it had now been some years since she has had any problem. What was happening ,prior to my using the prong collar on her, was she was pulling on her flat collar which was placing stress and pressure on her spine causing one of the discs to become inflamed.............but this never happened when she was on the prong.

I can't recommend the collars highly enough and I am sure if these collars were the collars recommended and used by all obedience clubs,then most people wouldn't be struggling with training and getting their dogs under control. The dogs basically correct themselves on the collars...........physical corrections are rarely needed.

[Staranais]

Hey Leo - have you ever considered that the corrections you used - verbal or/and phsyiscal were TOO HIGH thats why your dog shut down?

That's what I was thinking - I read somewhere that if you can't get your dog back into drive after a correction (whether you're in food drive, pack drive, prey drive, whatever), then your correction was way too hard.

I was also thinking that maybe your dog is confused about why he is getting corrected, and doesn't know how to avoid the correction. I don't think any trainer here would recommend that you correct your dog for a mistake during training, not if the dog was genuinely trying to complete the exercise. All that would give you would be an upset or scared dog.

Edited to add - I'm not saying that you should correct your dog if you don't want to or don't need to, I'm just trying to suggest a few reasons why you might have got the reaction you did from your dog.

Edited November 14, 2006 by Amhailte

[leopuppy04]

However, don't tell me that a prong doesn't hurt your dog like a shock collar doesn't hurt. Of course it does, it just doesn't cause lasting pain - it causes a 'shock pain' much like a quick, sharp, growl would scare your dog...

Depends how hard you yank it, I guess.

I have put my prong on my arm many times and popped myself, to show people it doesn't actually hurt unless you give it one heck of a good yank. A light to medium pop is merely uncomfortable. Honest.

You can certainly abuse a pinch collar by popping far too hard for the dog's temperament and hurting or scaring the dog. But then again, you can abuse any other correctional tool - even things as 'humane' as a flat buckle collar (e.g hanging a dog) or your voice (yelling scares the cr*p out of some dogs). Abuse is in the trainer, not the tool.

Well said! . Sure by correcting once or twice with any prong/chain would only be uncomfortable, but how about if you needed 10, 20? Starts to get a little dull ache after a while (nb: not talking about huge corrections here, just light to medium).... perhaps that is coz i'm weak, but hey, there will be dogs that are weak like me too :cool:! I've also seen exactly what you describe - dogs scared of owners raising their voice and also flat collars being misused. Personally, the discomfort from a constantly taut collar against my neck (yep, tried this too! I think I should be admitted to a nuthouse) would in some instances be more uncomfortable than one quick pop.

[MonElite]

Leo - I somewhat dont follow your way of thinking, pls explain to me more.

I want my dog to be doing what he does because he *wants* to and not because he is afraid of the aversive that may follow should he not comply.

You want the dog to make a mistake. What is the reason for you to do so?

In my opinion we set the dogs to make mistakes so that we can correct them appropriatelly for the dog, hence throught that they avoid making the same mistakes over and over again.

But you set the dog up for a mistake, than what? What do you do?

Can you give me an example pls, mabe that will make it easier for me.

Also what I want to say that I personally use mainly positive methods in my dog training, jsut in case anyone thought I dont.

[Staranais]

Well said! . Sure by correcting once or twice with any prong/chain would only be uncomfortable, but how about if you needed 10, 20?

If you're correcting your dog 10 or 20 times in a training session, I think you're probably doing something wrong.

If I found myself needing to correct that often, I'd want to take a break and consider why it was happening. For example, perhaps:

a) my dog was confused, and I should make the exercise easier for him instead of correcting him. or

b) the corrections I am using are just way too soft to make an impact on the dog.

[MonElite]

While personally, I wouldn't have a problem, I cant see why you would want to keep one on a trained dog.

I would becouse

1. potentially the dog is collar smart

2. in case the flat collar slips over the dog head in some freak accident and when you most likely need it most.

[leopuppy04]

Well said! . Sure by correcting once or twice with any prong/chain would only be uncomfortable, but how about if you needed 10, 20?

If you're correcting your dog 10 or 20 times in a training session, I think you're probably doing something wrong.

If I found myself needing to correct that often, I'd want to take a break and consider why it was happening. For example, perhaps:

a) my dog was confused, and I should make the exercise easier for him instead of correcting him. or

b) the corrections I am using are just way too soft to make an impact on the dog.

Seen it happen a gazzilion times before! People are constantly popping although using the chain correctly it just goes on & on & on lol.

[Staranais]

Seen it happen a gazzilion times before! People are constantly popping although using the chain correctly it just goes on & on & on lol.

Doesn't make it a kind or effective way to train, though, huh?

If a trainer was continually popping a dog with a correction collar and having no impact on the dog (or having an unwanted impact), then I'd personally call that misuse of the tool.

[dogdude]

Hi Myszka

The only arguement I have for those points is that they are both issues that should be taken care of in formal training. The time you should need them the most, is while training, not out while walking the dog although I can see your point, (leaning towards unusual and unforseen situations?)

[leopuppy04]

Leo - I somewhat dont follow your way of thinking, pls explain to me more.

I want my dog to be doing what he does because he *wants* to and not because he is afraid of the aversive that may follow should he not comply.

You want the dog to make a mistake. What is the reason for you to do so?

In my opinion we set the dogs to make mistakes so that we can correct them appropriatelly for the dog, hence throught that they avoid making the same mistakes over and over again.

But you set the dog up for a mistake, than what? What do you do?

Can you give me an example pls, mabe that will make it easier for me.

Also what I want to say that I personally use mainly positive methods in my dog training, jsut in case anyone thought I dont.

Hmmm... lets see how I go - I sometimes find this one difficult to explain . I don't set my dog up for mistakes but rather want him to try and think things through which is why I find clicker training so useful. For example - I may be teaching my dog a d/b retrieve using a clicker. I'd start with the d/b between my legs and C&T any interaction with it etc, etc. Now he may get so eager as we go along in training that he snatches the d/b from between my legs and holds it himself..... I would jackpot that. I guess it is not a mistake per se, but he is technically not doing something that he was previously rewarded for. Now it may be just me but I find that with correction training I can't get the same response. Again - another example would be a 'finish' - the dog knows it and does it well. but one day the dog does a really nice, close finish (the other one was fine too but this one was much neater and tighter) which I would reward again. I honestly find that these are left out a lot with correction training. But that may just be me. Does that make it any clearer by what I mean that I want the dog to make what it may percieve as a 'mistake'..... perhaps it is the wrong word to use?

Amhailte - yes, it probably is misuse of the tool, but it doesn't make me want to use them any more than I do now . NB: I don't have a negative, negative view toward them, I see their use and they are a very effective tool, I just choose not to use one in my training :cool:. In your training session - how long is it? How about for 1 hr at a dog club lesson? I think that particularly in the beginnings of class (ie: new student) would it still be misuse of the tool to correct a dog so often in such a high distracting environment?

[MonElite]

yes dogdude - my example

Two years ago my dog went missing and what I suspect was hit by a bus and seriously injured.

since than he isnt the same dog really, but still a great pet that I love with all my heart.

He walks nicely on lead, does everything I want him to do and in two years I have reintroduced him to the noice of the big streets and for about a year I considered that we have no issue with the trucks, busses, big cars etc.

About a month ago I was walking him and my puppy with OH and we were getting towards the lights that were red. Also along the same road was a bus and while to was breaking to stop at the lights it screached the breaks and as it was coming from behind us my dog got very scared (that he hasnt for 18 months)

Im guessing that when he was hit whatever hit him made the same type of a sound, and I have walked him countless times and there were countless busses going pass, breaking, leaving stoping etc - with no reaction from him - hence considered cured. This was the situation that I thought - lucky he isnt wearing a flat collar as it could slip off head...

[Staranais]

In your training session - how long is it? How about for 1 hr at a dog club lesson? I think that particularly in the beginnings of class (ie: new student) would it still be misuse of the tool to correct a dog so often in such a high distracting environment?

Nope, about 10 min for us normally, short attention spans here.

About the example given though, I'm not sure that I'd like to see a new student in a class correcting their dog physically at all, except perhaps if they were all working on loose leash walking. When you're starting to train a dog, the dog doesn't know what behaviour you want, so shouldn't be physically corrected for failing to offer it. IMO correcting a dog who is merely confused is unfair and ineffective. Your job as a trainer of a new job is to motivate the dog to give you his attention, and show him what you want him to do. Correction is best saved for later, when the dog fully understands what you want.

So yes, I'd definately say a class of beginners who were correcting their dogs over and over with a correction collar would be misusing the tool. They should motivate their dogs further with better rewards, or else start working in a less distracting environment (smaller classes or dogs further apart), instead of nagging the dogs. Just my 2 cents.

[poodlefan]

Ah yes, the evil prong collar. Universally condemned by people who call themselves "purely positive" trainers and yet these people advocate the use of haltis, citronella collars etc. Go figure.

Lets establish the facts. ANY physical method of controlling a dog uses aversion. Pressure on the flat collar, the limited slip collar, the prong, the halti - it's ALL aversive. Where "aversive" becomes "abusive" is a line we should and do debate.

I train only using flat collars but lets remember my heaviest dog weighs 6 kilos. If I needed more 'control', I'd opt for the limited slip collar and then the prong. I'd NEVER use a halti if I had a choice. Why? Because this "positive" method of control is extremely aversive to many dogs and that aversion is constant - whether the dog is pulling or not. I don't call continual application of an aversive effective training. Furthermore, they can and do cause long term harm to a dog's neck.

Open minded trainers, regardless of their training philosophy examine all training tools for themselves and determine which will work with their methods. Don't knock halti's, E-collars until you've examined them for yourself. Any tool can be abused and some supposedly "abusive" tools can, in the right hands, be extremely humane and effective methods of training. If the choice for the dog is to be walked on a prong, or not walked at all, from a welfare perspective, I favour the first option.

Of course the most effective method of training loose lead walking is never to let the dog learn to pull. Once you're dealing with a habitual puller you are probably going to have to exert some method of physical control while teaching the dog to walk on a loose lead.

Edited November 14, 2006 by poodlefan

[haven]

The only arguement I have for those points is that they are both issues that should be taken care of in formal training. The time you should need them the most, is while training, not out while walking the dog although I can see your point, (leaning towards unusual and unforseen situations?)

I guess it just depends on how you see training DD. IMO training never stops.

LP I see exactly what you are saying and FWIW to everyone I have seen LP train as she came through the NDTF course recently and think she's got a great understanding of the concepts and is very level headed about how and when it is appropriate to apply them.

I also agree with what LP is saying about freeshaping, dogs that are primarily trained using positive reinforcement and shaping are far more likely to try new things in order to find the correct behaviour than dogs who's owners are quick to deliver a punisher.

[Kavik]

IMO the time you will need control is while out on a walk! Besides the fact that I use walks as training time, walks are when you may come across something unexpected and unplanned. Such as a strange dog, kids on their way home from school, a mother pushing a pram, someone who is scared of dogs, an elderly man. These are the times you will want to practice that attention, or sit with distraction or heeling, when it matters the most. Not really the time you want to find yourself without whatever collar you prefer for training.

[leopuppy04]

I guess it just depends on how you see training DD. IMO training never stops.

LP I see exactly what you are saying and FWIW to everyone I have seen LP train as she came through the NDTF course recently and think she's got a great understanding of the concepts and is very level headed about how and when it is appropriate to apply them.

I also agree with what LP is saying about freeshaping, dogs that are primarily trained using positive reinforcement and shaping are far more likely to try new things in order to find the correct behaviour than dogs who's owners are quick to deliver a punisher.

Aw shucks - thanx haven

[dogdude]

The question I pose for you guys is this: Is there a need to ware a maximum impact training device on a TRAINED dog on a lesurely walk.

If so, I personally, would seriously be thinking about how well my methods/devices have worked to make the dog understand what is required from it. My idea of a walk with the dog is just that, a walk.

I have had to have full confidence in my dogs while in public as a past owner and trialler of Bull Terriers. They were all walked on flat collars while one of them was trained with a prong.