A Plastic Prong Collar

[oonga]

Nekhbet,

i am with you!! i also believe you should only be able to get prong collars from qualified trainers, who have assessed a particular dogs suitability for it.

i have started by educating my friends and work mates about prong collars, and i was surprised at some of the narrow mindedness amongst them at first.

judging prong collars because of the way they look , is no different to racism, or homophobia, judging a book by it's cover etc...

i guess we just have to get out there and educate the general public to start with.

[MonElite]

i also believe you should only be able to get prong collars from qualified trainers, who have assessed a particular dogs suitability for it.

I, dissagree that prongs should be sold for particular dogs. By a professional - yes, but once you have learned how to use one, which is BTW far from brain surgery, you can put one basically on any dog and work on that collar. if the dog doenst need a correction it simply wont get one, the collar will just sit there on the dogs neck not do anything.

Those that have been to K9s handlers workshop might remeber what dog jbbb and I got to work with - an obused pit cross affraid of people. One of the first things I did was to change her from a harness to a prong, as she was pulling me around ont he harnes and I couldnt hold her. By the end of the day she loved us and we got to check her ears, teeth, give her belly rubbs, and lift her up. Not bad for a dog that didnt want to be standing with a vacinity of a human being near her.

Imagine getting a clicker and clicking it "whenever" - Im sure one wouldnt get great results. Just like with any piece of equipement its the method that goes with the tool not the tool alone.

[kylieandpossum]

Imagine getting a clicker and clicking it "whenever" - Im sure one wouldnt get great results. Just like with any piece of equipement its the method that goes with the tool not the tool alone.

if you really think this is actually how clicker training works then its not surprising you wouldnt get great results. but i wonder if youve tried it at all? its the height of hypocrisy to have a go at me for dismissing something i supposedly know nothing about, only to do the same thing yourself.

[oonga]

Myszka,

your experience from what i have read on these forums, with dogs is quite vast, mine is not

my main concern is that there would be people out there who would just go to the shops and buy a prong collar without knowing how to fit, or use it,

which is why i made my comment.

also from my research, including HR and a seminar of Steve's

not all dogs need a prong collar, some do fine on a flat collar, some martingale etc...

this is another reason why i believe a dogs suitability for a prong needs to be assessed, you obviously have the experience to make that assessment many others don't.

[dogdude]

I would be interested in being involved in trying to change the prong legislation in Victoria, but where would we start? Dr Hugh "Wirthless" doesnt listen to anyone but his own echo.

Do we have any Victorian DOLers that are legal eagles?

[MonElite]

Kylieandpossum - I think you totally misunderstood my point.

I said that IF someone was to click the dog WHENEVER they WOULDNT get results at all.

And you can buy a cliker pretty much anywhere. In fact I own one, and yes I have tried using it. I have seen others sucessfully train the dogs with them. I havent persued the method well enought to say I had any results.

There isnt a point of getting one if you dont know how to use it - wouldnt you agree???? Its the same as with a prong.

oonga - my experience with dogs is vast no not really, Im pretty hopeless and helpless as a handler, majority that know me personally will tell you that.

I never said that a prong should be hanging next to the potatoe peeler at the supermarket, I said that once you know how to use it you can use it on any dog. Where I understood you suggested that a DOG should be assesed by a pro to get one.

Its the person that needs to know how to use it. I belive that a dog that will work on a flat can (doesnt have to) wear a prong, its up to the person how a prong is used, if it is all.

Edited November 14, 2006 by myszka

[haven]

Yep I was told by a very well respected 'positive only' trainer to put my GSD to sleep. I've also had people at various obedience clubs tell me he is 'untrainable' because he won't take food or toy rewards.

A head collar for a horse is nothing like a head collar for a dog and it really gets my goat when I hear idiots refer to them as though they are comparable. A head collar for a dog is comparable to what we refer to in the horse industry as a 'war bridle', something only used as a last resort with extreme care because they are potentially very harmful and you never, ever tie a horse up using a war bridle.

It is completely appropriate for a company to supply both prong collars and clickers, a good trainer will always work to create a contrast in training. Plus as Amhailte said, the so called 'positive only' people don't have a monopoly on using RMs in training

Count me in on the capaign to bring back power chains.

[leopuppy04]

yeah I saw that which I thought quite amusing.... how can u sell a clicker AND a prong collar in the same company...... seems to go a little in opposite directions don't you think?!?!

Nah, sounds perfectly normal to me. Most people who use prong collars also reward their dog for correct behaviour, and some of us certainly do use clickers or verbal bridges when we are teaching new behaviours. The purely positive school of thought doesn't have a monopoly on clickers or bridges. :cool:

LOL wasn't saying that - was just suprised thats all I was reading some of the previous posts and just thought i'd like to put my 2c in.

While IMO I don't really like prongs of any kind, it would be completely naive of me and in some ways uneducated to simply say that I don't like them because they are aversive. Whether you use food, clickers or whatever, there will always be an aversive of some form and the individual dog really does define what this aversive would be. I know that if I put a prong on my dog, i'd never be able to get him to work for me again - i'm not just saying that, he is just a very soft dog when working.

Having said that I don't think that anyone that uses a prong is out to 'brutally mistreat' their dog or anything like that ;).... sure I may *never* (haha never say never!) want to use a prong, I understand that there are times and places for all training tools and like me others have preferences to certian types of training tools.

However, don't tell me that a prong doesn't hurt your dog like a shock collar doesn't hurt. Of course it does, it just doesn't cause lasting pain - it causes a 'shock pain' much like a quick, sharp, growl would scare your dog... That is how I interperet this. I have not made my decision of where I stand simply by looking at the prong over the net, but using it on myself and looking at it in detail, researching (sometimes that is hard, things are so biased someitmes) etc, etc.

If a prong is what you use so that you have control over your dog and thus that dog has a better quality of life because it can go on daily walks and regular outings with you, who am I to stand in your way

Having said that - now - logically looking at it.... I don't see how the rubber prong would be anywhere near as effective as the chain version, particularly on long coated breeds. Unlike a check chain where I believe the nylon/leather/whatever versions are just as effective, I don't think this one will be.

Just my 2c worth.

[oonga]

Myszka,

ok i guess i misunderstood that about not all dogs needing a prong collar,

i guess i can see your point about how a dog may not need a prong, but it would not hurt it to have one.

i was under the impression of why use a prong if a dog doesn't need it, but i also had this idea (and i am not sure where it came from) that some dogs just are not suitable for one, but your comment makes sense, and it wouldn't hurt the dog.

i also completely agree that it is the humans that need the training and should have clarified that point more!!

your comment about the prong hanging next to the potato peeler, is exactly what i would be afraid of, except the supermarkets would be putting it in the pet section along with check chains!!

[MonElite]

Leo - what do you call a soft dog? soft emotionally? or having a low threshhold to pain?

My puppy is a soft "emotionally" dog with a huge pain threashold, what do you call her?

If you needed to use an aversive on such do what would it be???

[leopuppy04]

A head collar for a horse is nothing like a head collar for a dog and it really gets my goat when I hear idiots refer to them as though they are comparable. A head collar for a dog is comparable to what we refer to in the horse industry as a 'war bridle', something only used as a last resort with extreme care because they are potentially very harmful and you never, ever tie a horse up using a war bridle.

Interesting Haven - do people actually tie there dogs up with halters attached :cool: !! why, why, why are these getting sold everywhere nowadays like check chains ;)...... (NB: I use halters and love 'em, but people need to know how to use them first!).. Infact the other day I saw a 'gentle leader' type halter being sold in a $2 shop and it was packaged as a 'dog muzzle' *sigh*!

It is completely appropriate for a company to supply both prong collars and clickers, a good trainer will always work to create a contrast in training. Plus as Amhailte said, the so called 'positive only' people don't have a monopoly on using RMs in training

Count me in on the capaign to bring back power chains.

LOL - I don't think that if you use a prong that you cant use a clicker - it is only a bridge for all that it is talked up to be (I am a clicker nut btw), but I found it suprising that a company would supply both considering that companies that sell prongs & check chains are usually 'anti clicker' and those that sell clickers are usually 'anti chains'..... LOL - Haven - you have trained me well, i'm begining to hate the term 'positive only'.... anyone know a 'positive only' trainer?!?!?!?!

[kylieandpossum]

i also believe you should only be able to get prong collars from qualified trainers, who have assessed a particular dogs suitability for it.

Imagine getting a clicker and clicking it "whenever" - Im sure one wouldnt get great results. Just like with any piece of equipement its the method that goes with the tool not the tool alone.

i just went on exactly what you said which implied 'clicking whenever'. i didnt see any ifs in there but i take your point, yes it would be ridiculous and in my experience it is often the case that people who think their dog cant be clicker trained think that because they dont understand how to make the connection between the behaviour, the click and the reward so its just a noise to a dog. i have also seen some people trying to use it as lure, like trying to get the dog to come by clicking from the other side of a paddock. its as frustrating to watch as someone yanking on a check chain.

[MonElite]

ok i guess i misunderstood that about not all dogs needing a prong collar,

not all NEED one, thats is absolutly true

i was under the impression of why use a prong if a dog doesn't need it, but i also had this idea (and i am not sure where it came from)

maybe from the fact that a flat collar or a martingale is lests say $15 where the prong is (what?) 4 times the price?

your comment about the prong hanging next to the potato peeler, is exactly what i would be afraid of, except the supermarkets would be putting it in the pet section along with check chains!!

that are of course legal and come with no instructions on how NOT to use them, and are about $10-15....

[haven]

LOL - Haven - you have trained me well, i'm begining to hate the term 'positive only'

I'm having a hard time biting my tongue now, as for those that know me well know my other pet hate is the assumption that physical punishers are more harmful or worse for a dog than other punishers and this topic is going in that direction

[dogdude]

I think that what many people that are not informed about Prongs dont realize is that they are designed to be a short term, but effective, fast working method to getting your dog on a flat collar.

I think that some get visions of dogs wearing them for the rest of their lives.

If you use them for more than a short time, you are not getting the result intended.

[MonElite]

lets move in that direction than haven

dogdude - why do you say that? if the dog isnt pulling and wearing a prong - what is the problem with the dog wearing it all its life?

Edited November 14, 2006 by myszka

[leopuppy04]

Leo - what do you call a soft dog? soft emotionally? or having a low threshhold to pain?

My puppy is a soft "emotionally" dog with a huge pain threashold, what do you call her?

If you needed to use an aversive on such do what would it be???

I guess 'soft' is hard to explain. He is soft 'emotionally' I guess because should I ever correct him in training (yell, check, whatever) when he is in 'training mode' he will completely shut down. He is such a great worker, why would I want to do that. He is trying his best to do what I ask him and usually it is because he can't understand what I want him to do. As for physical pain, I dunno... average??? If he has an injury he usually rests himself... but he certianly hid a doozy from me not so long ago...

My dog does NOT bounce back from corrections like most dogs do. He shuts down and refuses to work again. Some may say work through this, I say, make training fun and I have found a way to do that. If I were to work through it and persist with corrections, i'd have a dog that would hate to work. He is a precise worker and works brilliantly for what he wants.... is that good training or just him as a dog... I think it is just him. He remembers all corrections and if we were to do the same thing the next day he will be very tentative about doing as I ask - not something I want to see. I don't mind if my dog makes a mistake - sometimes that mistake is exactly what I was looking for.

Usually my adversive for him is simply walking away and ending the training session. This is a dog that WANTS to work. Perhaps it wont work for my next dog. Occassionally I would use an 'UH' but it all depends on what it is he has done. If he lacks attention in training; I walk off on him (ie: you don't pay attention to me I wont to you), if you made a BIG mistake, he will get an 'UH'. If he makes a HUGE mistake I chuck a hissy.... (very amusing to watch!). I have corrected him a few times, but I know when I can and can't. He was completely tuned out and in 'drive' to chase ducks. Quick correction brought him back and this is the only time I can do it - when he is completely focused on something else.

I hope this makes sense! Half the time I think I talk gibberish!

[MonElite]

Hey Leo - have you ever considered that the corrections you used - verbal or/and phsyiscal were TOO HIGH thats why your dog shut down?

[jesomil]

I would love to be involved in any way to change the prong legislation here in Victoria. I have been speaking about it to people for a while now but dont really know how to get started.

I really think we should try and do something. I think it would be a big fight but really worth it

[Staranais]

However, don't tell me that a prong doesn't hurt your dog like a shock collar doesn't hurt. Of course it does, it just doesn't cause lasting pain - it causes a 'shock pain' much like a quick, sharp, growl would scare your dog...

Depends how hard you yank it, I guess.

I have put my prong on my arm many times and popped myself, to show people it doesn't actually hurt unless you give it one heck of a good yank. A light to medium pop is merely uncomfortable. Honest.

You can certainly abuse a pinch collar by popping far too hard for the dog's temperament and hurting or scaring the dog. But then again, you can abuse any other correctional tool - even things as 'humane' as a flat buckle collar (e.g hanging a dog) or your voice (yelling scares the cr*p out of some dogs). Abuse is in the trainer, not the tool.