Nekhbet Posted November 12, 2006 Share Posted November 12, 2006 Different dogs require different methods. Try training a malinois in the peak of drive with some food or a flat collar. These dogs have been selecitively bred with a high tolerance and security training requires the dog to be stimulated by pulling. So what do I do here? I have heard these plastic prongs are painful and also have broken off whilst on the dog. They're complete crap. get a stainless one if you need one as it does what the collar is meant to do - create an aversion through the pinch method using light pressure, less then a flat collar. I find nothing wrong with pinch collars and ecollars BUT they need to be used by people who understand them only. They should be under professional use or supervision. They are equiptment made to get results for higher tolerance dogs, not to be a quick fix when some people are too lazy to put in real work (and I'm not taking a dig at anyone just making a statement) I agree that dog training requires rewarding the good behaviours over constant 'no' or 'bad dog'. They dont speak english so we are there to show them what to do. But when one owns dogs that are above the average sometimes purely positive, clicker, flat etc cant be the only options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted November 12, 2006 Author Share Posted November 12, 2006 I have a very keen black gsd bitch and she thinks of it as an annoyance. I have found that no matter how I try this thing it sucks, end of story. We all no how it feels to come to the end of a training day and nothing has been acomplished. This how I felt after using one of these collars. If you have a dog that needs one of the pinch collars get a real one they do work and work well. But remember that not all dogs respond well to the pinch and I dont think they are legal in Aus. PS sorry about any mis- spellings 100% agree with you, prongs are not suitable for every dog. And no they are not illegal in Australia as a whole, each state has different laws/restrictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stacey and douglas Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Hey Nekhbet I know what you mean I have just come back to gsd dogs. I have had mals for the last five years. Mostly doing french ring. My male mal would only respond to pinch or the threat of no food for a month. Na he was good just hard headed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 you dont put them on your dog cos they look good do you? Not as a main reason, no, but IMHO this one looks pretty good...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Without wading into the debate too heavily, as a 'positive trainer' (silly phrase considering there is no such thing) i would like to hear your opinions on headcollars which are designed to be used with elements of negative reinforcement- applying pressure to a dog and when they do the action required, releasing that pressure. Why is that okay but yet a physical correction is not? How do you feel about a high drive dog that bolts to the end of a lead with a headcollar? Or a dog who has no food drive? Can you acknowledge that all dogs are different and the same method does not work for every dog? I would love to never administer a correction- but there are certain behaviours which an owner needs to stop immediately and positive techniques just don't cut it. Here is a question i would love the answer to as i have had more than a handful of 'positive trainers' answer yes and put forward recomendations for euthanasia with a dog or dogs that i have gone on to work with with great results, a happy dog and owner. Do you think that giving a physical correction is a worse option than euthanasia? * So much for not wading into the debate too heavily... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted November 13, 2006 Author Share Posted November 13, 2006 I'm personaly not a fan of head collars as I find them a band aid to a problem....i.e. as soon as you take them off the dog reverts back. Also they are so readily available that many people don't seek training on how to use them correctly i.e. the type of correction you give and also how to handle a dog that lunges on one. I find them dangerous in the sense that if you have a dog lunging on them or quick head movements this can more cause issues due to the position of the halter. I find the hardest thing to get my head around is that some people/trainers say that horses are fine with them so why wouldn't a dog? Perhaps because a dog is a dog and a horse is a horse. I also don't like to see people walking their dogs on head halters letting to dog walk way out in front, to bring that dog under control you're going to have to tug the head sidewards. I have worked with different types of dogs on halters so the above is from the experience I have had. I certainly do not feel that physical correction is worse than a dog being pts. I love the thought of positive training, it has its' place just like every other method and not all dogs are suited to all different types of methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tapferhund Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 "Do you think that giving a physical correction is a worse option than euthanasia?" OMG.you are joking I hope?? Compared to death a physical correction is NOTHING and if any of those so called positive trainers think otherwise,then they are the ones who should be PTS. Cosmolo, you seem to have the right attitude to training and you are right ....all dogs are different and one method of training does not work on all dogs. What annoys me are the people ,who have become so tunneled visioned,they can see nothing else but "clicker" ,looking down their noses at anyone else who do not train by this method. They seem to think that if you don't use a clicker you are somehow a bad trainer using negative reinforced "old" methods (what ever that means?) LOL As to head collars..........I don't like them ,apart from the fact dogs find them extremely uncomfortable , these collars are the worst training tool to ever hit the dog world as they are dangerous and can do a lot of damage to the dogs spine. Just picture a 30 to 40 kg dog suddenly lunging forward on one and the owners reaction is to "pull back"...twisting the head back towards the dogs body...........not good !!! IMO these are the collars that should have been banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 (edited) As someone who's tried every collar except a prong here's my experiences for use with a large, strong, dog aggressive dog.... Flat collar: sure, it's painless enough, but he could choke himself to death by the time I get him back under control using one. Body harness: this thing's made for pullin' right on! Right? Right? Eh? Choker: gives reasonably good corrections and I've taught a strong puller to heel beautifully using one, however I have to give it a really good snap for him to feel it (even at the top of his neck). When he lunges at other dogs I die a little inside knowing the kind of damage that is potentially being done to his throat with all that pressure on a small area. Regardless, it gives me the best control/results out of all the collars. Head collar (both halti & gentle leader): While it's true that it made it easier to hold him when he pulled, these collars did nothing to help him stay in a heel position and he hated every second he wore the damn things. He also went backwards obedience wise when I used them. As for lunging at other dogs- the GL would ride up over his eyes (yes, it was correctly fitted) to the point where I was concerned that it would cause injury. Then I tried a halti which, while better, put a crap load of pressure around his nose if he lunged and, given the sensitivity of that area, I think it would have caused a fair bit of pain as well. Not to mention that the months I used these damn collars he had a permanant line across the top of his nose, which I've been told is "normal". Martingale: correction? What correction? Nuf said. Clicker: well, I honestly do like the clicker. It's awesome for teaching him to shake hands and roll over, but forget about heeling, sitting, and all the other obedience that counts when we're out in the street. He just ain't food driven, regardless of how much I skip/cut back on meals. We have had small amounts of success when dealing with his aggression, but ultimately I think it could take the rest of his life to train him with this method whereas it seems it would be a matter of weeks (days?) with a good ol'..... Prong collar. Oh what's that? A bunch of people thought they look mean so they're banned? Shame it seems I'll never be able to find out for myself how much it has the potential to turn my dog around. I'm at the point where I have to exercise the dog in the back garden half the week because I can't always be the positive strong leader I have to be in order to walk him (especially in the first stressful month of a new job) and not have him lunge at every dog he sees. Sure, we have a heap of wins, but we also have really bad days sometimes and it's hard for both of us. I'm seriously considering trying (and probably failing) to campaign to legalise prong collars again using my poor dog as an example. The legislation behind the ban in Victoria is an utter joke- read between the lines it is literally what I typed above- a bunch of people thought they were mean so they were banned...that's it. No medical or behavioural assessments were done and they even acknowledged that chokers have more potential to cause harm. /rant Oh yeah, and the plastic prongs look like rubbish, I wouldn't touch one let alone put one on my dog. EDIT: sorry for the rant, I'm in a mood Chocolate should sooth the angry beast soon Edited November 13, 2006 by jaybeece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Unfortunately i am not joking and i know of a positive trainer (who runs a training business herself) who euthanased her own dog rather than give a correction. If everyone could accept that dogs are different, handlers are different and different methods are appropriate in different situations, dogs and their owners would be a whole lot better off! All equipment has pros and cons and it is the skill and timing of the handler and trainers that people should focus on- not what piece of equipment they feel is appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 I'm seriously considering trying ... to campaign to legalise prong collars again ... Funny you say that, because I brought up that subject with someone else only yesterday. Hhhhmmmmm ........................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Funny you say that, because I brought up that subject with someone else only yesterday. Hhhhmmmmm ........................ Well, I'm willing to give it a go...any idea where to start? I was thinking about pinning up articles about them at the local dog park and anywhere else it would get exposure from dog people, as well as going around to vets and asking them if they can offer any medical information about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 PMing you, Jaybeece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oonga Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 i would definately be into campaigning for lifting the ban on prong collars!!! if anyone is seriously going to start something please let me know. i think we could do something along the lines of the movie "The Castle" we just need to find a QC to donate their time to help us with the legal side of things seriously i think this is an issue that we as dog lovers need to deal with, and i have thought about it a lot!! i also feel that with the right research, dedicated team we really can achieve this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 I'm happy to help out where I can. Even though I'm in Qld where they're legal, I believe anything that can be done to help them become a more acceptable training tool everywhere in Australia is good. CCCQ wrote to our club asking for a please explain when the subject of prongs come up and quoted the animal cruelty act. Although our club doesn't promote the use of prongs, their are some who attend who use them with excellent results. Just tonight we had a woman injured when her dog lunged in an unexpected direction. This is a strong dog and the woman just does not have the strength to stand up to its force. Otherwise the dog is progressing really good in its training generally, and yes, even in the heel. Just lunges against her when it thinks its gonna get some attention from someone else. Just loves people! All the time I'm thinking, wow, a prong could really help out this woman and her dog the way it has for me but I can't recommend it to her at club. Its ludicrous! Also, because there is a nasty situation at club with some in-fighting, I figured that sooner or later someone would dob me in. I emailed both CEO and local cruelty inspector of RSPCA and told them that I was using a prong. I know that they can't do anything unless they can prove a case of cruelty and I'm happy for them to try and take me to court...but I know they won't because they won't be able to prove their case. But figured I'd get in first incase the shyte hits the fan. Its been over a week now since I sent the email and haven't heard anything yet...wonder if I ever will? I have also heard of PP trainers suggesting PTS for problems that they couldn't solve....I wonder how many people actually follow this advice? As for head halters, my dogs musculo-skeletal physio advised against them...said that it would be too dangerous for her, he was actually impressed with the prong. There was a site that hosted and collected signatures for petitions that I can't find at the mo...perhaps this would be handy in any action to help the Victorians out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 (edited) "Do you think that giving a physical correction is a worse option than euthanasia?"OMG.you are joking I hope?? She's not joking. I've talked to people who have said to my face that they'd rather put a dog to sleep than use an e-collar on them. I've also talked to positive trainers who think that if you can't control any particular dog through positive methods alone, then that just shows you shouldn't own the dog, and you should either give him away or PTS. Sad, but true. Luckily, in my experience, these kind of fanatics are few and far between. Most positive trainers that I have met are actually reasonably open minded and quite nice people! Edited November 13, 2006 by Amhailte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Here 'tis if its of any use: The Petition Site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Unfortunately i am not joking and i know of a positive trainer (who runs a training business herself) who euthanased her own dog rather than give a correction. OMG I am in absolute shock. What kind of weak arse moronic trainer would give up on an animal. Thats STUPIDITY AND CRUELTY at its best right there people. I'm a shite trainer so i'll murder the dog. Give the green dream to her and lets not perpetuate her idiocy. I am so mad at hearing this. Yup prongs should be legalised BUT for the right people by the right people. no selling in pet stores or online to anyone who just wants one. Proper supervision to make sure the small minority of numbnuts out there dont ruin it for the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 I brought a Triple Crown Clicker today and in the information pack there was a picture of a Triple Crown collar that looked very much like a Prong Collar Click here to read info and see video. What are your thoughts? yeah I saw that which I thought quite amusing.... how can u sell a clicker AND a prong collar in the same company...... seems to go a little in opposite directions don't you think?!?! But then, maybe it isn't that bad because it is plastic *sigh*! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Even though I'm in Qld where they're legal, I believe anything that can be done to help them become a more acceptable training tool everywhere in Australia is good. I heard recently that they're banned or almost banned in QLD now. I hope there's no truth in that Yup prongs should be legalised BUT for the right people by the right people. no selling in pet stores or online to anyone who just wants one. Proper supervision to make sure the small minority of numbnuts out there dont ruin it for the rest of us. Agreed. Prongs ain't for everyone, but that's the same with any training collar. I'd prefer it if all training collars required a consultation with a trainer first as all of them can cause injury if used incorrectly, especially chokers. It's alarming how many people let their dogs hang on the end gasping for breath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 yeah I saw that which I thought quite amusing.... how can u sell a clicker AND a prong collar in the same company...... seems to go a little in opposite directions don't you think?!?! Nah, sounds perfectly normal to me. Most people who use prong collars also reward their dog for correct behaviour, and some of us certainly do use clickers or verbal bridges when we are teaching new behaviours. The purely positive school of thought doesn't have a monopoly on clickers or bridges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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