A Plastic Prong Collar

[Ons]

I also will defend the prong collars. Both my two know that if they walk properly it does not hurt them at all. Indeed even a little tug doesn't hurt them and makes them walk properly. Surely, surely surely an enjoyable walk for all of us, without me thinking I'm going to be pulled over any second and with them being under control in a second if a car comes is far far far better than our previous walks without them. And I have tried the prong collar on my arm and no a little tug doesn't hurt. If you use them properly they do not hurt your dogs, just a gentle reminder for them to behave.

Apparently you can get plastic thingamigigs for the prongs in America but they aren't that effective.

[sas]

I have tried the rubber comfort tips for prongs, didn't work with the pooch I was working it, may work for others *shrugs*

[snobbybobby]

i too agree that the prong collars arent as affective as positive training.

Your 21 year experience obviously excluded combining of the use of a collar WITH positive training.

Perhaps this is why you didnt have a lot of success

Do you have any idea what behavioural training (aka positive reinforcement) is all about???

[MonElite]

I have a vague idea. Whats your dfinition pls?

[kylieandpossum]

I also will defend the prong collars. Both my two know that if they walk properly it does not hurt them at all. Indeed even a little tug doesn't hurt them and makes them walk properly. Surely, surely surely an enjoyable walk for all of us, without me thinking I'm going to be pulled over any second and with them being under control in a second if a car comes is far far far better than our previous walks without them. And I have tried the prong collar on my arm and no a little tug doesn't hurt. If you use them properly they do not hurt your dogs, just a gentle reminder for them to behave.

Apparently you can get plastic thingamigigs for the prongs in America but they aren't that effective.

a pleasant walk with a dog is completely attainable using positive reward based methods as well, of course. i dont think its one or the other. but i dont get how "if it doesnt hurt them" it still makes them walk properly? if it doesnt hurt, why bother with it because you would get the same result from a flat collar no? a gentle reminder is possible with any kind of collar. no one can seem to answer that part of my question, which is a genuine training question, but all i am getting are polemical attacks that tell me how i dont know anything, when ive never declared what i do or dont know. that IS hostile, regardless of how i want to take it - and i never called anyone cruel either, interesting that its been made out that i did (re sas's post). is that because we all agree that any kind of training that hurts a dog is cruel?

[MonElite]

why bother with it because you would get the same result from a flat collar no?

why bother with a collar at all?

a gentle reminder is possible with any kind of collar.

sure is, so a flat collar would be used as an aversive during the "gentle reminder"?

Edited November 11, 2006 by myszka

[kylieandpossum]

why bother with it because you would get the same result from a flat collar no?

why bother with a collar at all?

my dogs walk just as well off lead so technically youre right i wouldnt ahve them wear a collar at all except i now live in a city and they have to display their tags.

a gentle reminder is possible with any kind of collar.

sure is, so a flat collar would be used as an aversive during the "gentle reminder"?

i wouldnt know, i trained my dogs to walk next to me using positive reinforcement and i dont have to remind them of anything.

and so we avoid answering the question again.

Edited November 11, 2006 by kylieandpossum

[MonElite]

Im not avoiding answering....

Just like you said that a gentle reminder can be applied with a flat collar its the same with a prong collar.

And what I call gentle might not be what you call gentle.

So the dogs wont be the same as well and whats hard for one will be a fly buzzing for another. And this is a reason why one will do well on a flat, one on a martingale and another on a prong.

[PAX]

I have a head ache.

Myzska ...........be nice.

[MonElite]

Ill try to be gentle PAX, cant promise to be actually "nice", you know me well enough

Funny thing happened today actually at the club - I had a new student a man with a teenage daughter. I got Ms Poisonality out of the car - he loved her...... (weird man obviously) asked if I want to swap her for his mega pulling Kelpie.

I almost did

[sas]

I also will defend the prong collars. Both my two know that if they walk properly it does not hurt them at all. Indeed even a little tug doesn't hurt them and makes them walk properly. Surely, surely surely an enjoyable walk for all of us, without me thinking I'm going to be pulled over any second and with them being under control in a second if a car comes is far far far better than our previous walks without them. And I have tried the prong collar on my arm and no a little tug doesn't hurt. If you use them properly they do not hurt your dogs, just a gentle reminder for them to behave.

Apparently you can get plastic thingamigigs for the prongs in America but they aren't that effective.

a pleasant walk with a dog is completely attainable using positive reward based methods as well, of course. i dont think its one or the other. but i dont get how "if it doesnt hurt them" it still makes them walk properly? if it doesnt hurt, why bother with it because you would get the same result from a flat collar no? a gentle reminder is possible with any kind of collar. no one can seem to answer that part of my question, which is a genuine training question, but all i am getting are polemical attacks that tell me how i dont know anything, when ive never declared what i do or dont know. that IS hostile, regardless of how i want to take it - and i never called anyone cruel either, interesting that its been made out that i did (re sas's post). is that because we all agree that any kind of training that hurts a dog is cruel?

eh? *goes back and reads your posts* *still confused* Maybe you you came across like you thought prongs and e-collars were bad and you didn't mean too?

[Rom]

My experience with the prong, and yes I'm one of those that were 100% against them until I got educated, is that when its fitted correctly and a proper and gentle method used for its introduction to the dog, its kind of the difference between us wearing thongs and masseur sandals. They take a little getting used to, there is some discomfort, not pain, and you never really entirely forget that you've got them on. I'm sure that my girl would forget that she had me on the end of the lead with other collars, all the purely positive stuff we had been working on...clickers, yummy treats, halties, harnesses you name it...for two years would all go out the window when her natural drives were triggered. She would hit the end of the lead so hard that we have had no fewer than 4 appointments with canine chiropractors and muscular skeletal physio therapists for her back being out, her neck being out and torn muscles in the 12 months prior to us getting the prong. She could deliver herself a level of correction that I would never dream of using on a dog, she would hit the end of the lead sooo hard that sometimes she would flip herself off her feet and come crashing down on her back... it wouldn't slow her down. But we all know that a high threshold to pain is no protection against injury. In the 12 months prior to getting the prong I spent no less than $3000 trying to sort this issue out. How long do you think it would have been fair or humane to carry on in the above fashion for?

K&P, dogs as well as people have different thresholds to different stimuli. People have never been selectively bred to concentrate these thresholds like dogs have. The hunting breeds in particular have been selectively bred to have a high threshold to pain so that they could carry out their jobs without losing focus should they get hurt in the same way that the herding breeds have been selectively bred to have low thresholds to pain and stress because this increases their level of compliance. After all, they were bred to work under the direction of their human handlers, where as the hunting breeds were bred to carry out there job without the direction of human handlers....they have bred to have the ability to complete their jobs should the hunt travel rapidly away from the human.

But I understand your concern. I too initially judged the prong on its appearance.

BTW, I don't like the look of the sharp ends on the plastic prong. Would also be concerned about the end of prongs breaking off and leaving a jaggered edge.

ETA: a few more articles to throw into the prong debate:

Susan Clothier - Flying Dog Press - Prong

Susan Clothier - Flying Dog Press - Head Halters

Edited November 11, 2006 by Rom

[kylieandpossum]

eh? *goes back and reads your posts* *still confused* Maybe you you came across like you thought prongs and e-collars were bad and you didn't mean too?

oh no i meant to do that, i do think they're "bad" for lots of reasons, but i never said anyone in particular was cruel, as some people have taken the time to explain they use them for particular instances and get particular results. you were the one who started off by calling me uneducated, when you know nothing about me or where i was coming from. you made assumptions that i have never experienced these things and so was not qualified to comment. first of all thats an assumption, secondly do you carry that philosophy to all your interactions? of course not, that would be ridiculous. not that i really want an answer to that question. im just not going to shut up about something that i think is important because some people on an online forum think they know more than someone else and thinks that that gives them the right to shout them down.

[kylieandpossum]

How long do you think it would have been fair or humane to carry on in the above fashion for?

K&P, dogs as well as people have different thresholds to different stimuli. People have never been selectively bred to concentrate these thresholds like dogs have. The hunting breeds in particular have been selectively bred to have a high threshold to pain so that they could carry out their jobs without losing focus should they get hurt in the same way that the herding breeds have been selectively bred to have low thresholds to pain and stress because this increases their level of compliance. After all, they were bred to work under the direction of their human handlers, where as the hunting breeds were bred to carry out there job without the direction of human handlers....they have bred to have the ability to complete their jobs should the hunt travel rapidly away from the human.

thanks for taking the time to write this. no it wouldnt have been fair at all to continue training methods that werent working, absolutely. i think it was in "the other end of the leash" where patricia mcconnell talked about using an aversive method based on frightening the dog to stop a potentially dangerous behaviour and she said if it didnt work the first time she did it she would never do it again because obvisouly it wasnt going to work, but it worked and the dog never did the behaviour again. i imagine that thats the philosophy that you're working with, and i use something like this myself in herding which is based on making my dog "emotionally" uncomfortable, that is, moving my body to block her to make her go the way i want, which as you say on a 'stress based' working dog can be very effective. (so true what you say about working dogs and stress levels vs hunting dogs) this is a good point about threshholds, i have seen so many dogs on check chains or pinch collars with really high thresholds and theyre getting hurt PLUS not getting trained, so thats my concern really, the training philosophy behind it. in my experience, it is combined with a hostile attitude to the dog based on badly understood dominance theory and the attempt to 'control' the dog, rather than build a relationship to work with the dog.

we have used positive reward based methods with both of our dogs for general 'obedience' and stuff around the home and our cattle dog is a top flyball and agility dog and thats all from positive methods, but he walks a very fine line of being just out of control, in terms of the level of independent thinking hes capable of. physical methods mean nothing to him, his pain threshold is SOOO high, we have found food is his highest motivation which has become attached to a 'what do you want me to do' mentality with him - sometimes good sometimes bad. it meant we couldnt really do herding with him because the food for work exchange was too high. with possum, the herding has been the key and i now have a real mental or emotional relationship with her (dont want to be too anthropomorphic) that makes her very compliant, but i went through a real dilemma when we started because the way of working wasnt clicker or food based (still reward based with working the sheep being the reward) but it did make her uncomfortable at first and that was hard to deal with.

i understand your point about the way its applied. i guess i just see too many people using them in a 'bad' way that i worry about their efficacy.

cheers

kylie

Edited November 11, 2006 by kylieandpossum

[sas]

eh? *goes back and reads your posts* *still confused* Maybe you you came across like you thought prongs and e-collars were bad and you didn't mean too?

oh no i meant to do that, i do think they're "bad" for lots of reasons, but i never said anyone in particular was cruel, as some people have taken the time to explain they use them for particular instances and get particular results. you were the one who started off by calling me uneducated, when you know nothing about me or where i was coming from. you made assumptions that i have never experienced these things and so was not qualified to comment. first of all thats an assumption, secondly do you carry that philosophy to all your interactions? of course not, that would be ridiculous. not that i really want an answer to that question. im just not going to shut up about something that i think is important because some people on an online forum think they know more than someone else and thinks that that gives them the right to shout them down.

I'm still confused, so you said they were bad and that the prongs were sharp.....so that would mean you think we're doing bad things to our dogs, that you think we're hurting our dogs which means you think we're being cruel to our dogs? I'm certainly not jumping on, I'm just trying to understand your point of view.

[kylieandpossum]

I'm still confused, so you said they were bad and that the prongs were sharp.....so that would mean you think we're doing bad things to our dogs, that you think we're hurting our dogs which means you think we're being cruel to our dogs? I'm certainly not jumping on, I'm just trying to understand your point of view.

ok maybe i wasnt clear. i will try and be as honest as possible. i think they are bad because in my experience, what i have seen in dog training world, is that they are too often, i would say 99% of the time, used as substitute for actual training. as a so-called quick fix to problems that could be solved other ways, or as a sign of defeat in the face of too-hard training issues, or by "old school" (i use that term cautiously) obedience based trainers who think that a good dog is a quiet submissive frightened dog, who see these signs in their dog as a reflection of some misnomer called respect, which the dog is supposed to have towards them, which is usually just fear, and can easily turn a dog vicious and aggressive at any moment, or worse, where the actual problem escalates. at the very least i have seen them used as treatments for symptoms of 'real' underlying issues that never get dealt with.

the prong collar that was originally posted might not be sharp in terms of a knife sharp but also in my experience, dogs are more sensitive to pain than humans, esp when shocked or startled. so just because it doesnt hurt us, doesnt mean it doesnt hurt them.

i understand that you are saying there is a way to use these things properly and i never advocated the idea that all dog training could be 100% positive all the time, but as i said positive does not mean permissive. i dont want to get into a debate about one vs the other, but i only ever get criticisms of positive reward based training from people who have not fully committed the time and energy to do it properly. this is no different to the criticism you would make of those of us who dont use collars like this etc. i also never said anything bad about aversive training, but i do believe if it doesnt stop the dog doing what its designed to stop the dog doing, then its not training is it, it becomes cruel? this is my bottom line issue with collars, check chains etc, that too often (not always) they do not teach the dog anything. they may tell the dog what NOT to do but they do not give the dog options about what it CAN do. a relationship with a dog that is always based on 'dont do that dont do that' is not a harmonious relationship, as it would not be with a child, with whom at least you can reason (to some extent).

as for cruelty, you, and others, suggest it is not cruel if used correctly. i have no issues with that. like i said, when its not tho, of course it is cruel. and as for ecollars, they are illegal for a very good reason, and i dont think they should be discussed on a forum that it supposed to be PRO dogs, unless it is with complete condemnation.

i dont think i can make myself any clearer, doesnt mean im right of course.

[Rom]

In other words you concur that the cruelty is not in the tool, but in the handler? (Quote from Steve Courtney)

[kylieandpossum]

In other words you concur that the cruelty is not in the tool, but in the handler? (Quote from Steve Courtney)

sigh. really, how am i supposed to answer that? is a gun really just a pretty accessory that some idiots use in the wrong way? these collars and things like them are designed to do something very specific. people use them because they do what they are meant to do. you dont put them on your dog cos they look good do you? i mean really, this is ridiculous and im not going to sit here and listen to anymore of this defensive bulls**t. if youre happy with using things that look like medieval torture implements on your dogs go knock yourself out. i tried to be reasonable and made my position quite clear. am i the only person in the world, or in this forum who thinks this way? i think not. everyone else has just given up trying to reason with the unreasonable and i think its time i did the same.

[Tapferhund]

This topic of Prongs has been done soooo many times before so I won't say much other than I am an absolute believer in these collars,they are the most humane collars which should be the only collar used other than a flat collar.

I always find it amusing that those people,through ignorance , who are against the use of Prongs are more than happy in the use of Slip Chains and Head Collars,both of which can be dangerous to dogs.

[stacey and douglas]

I have a very keen black gsd bitch and she thinks of it as an annoyance. I have found that no matter how I try this thing it sucks, end of story. We all no how it feels to come to the end of a training day and nothing has been acomplished. This how I felt after using one of these collars. If you have a dog that needs one of the pinch collars get a real one they do work and work well. But remember that not all dogs respond well to the pinch and I dont think they are legal in Aus. PS sorry about any mis- spellings

Edited November 12, 2006 by sasjeep