sas Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 (edited) I brought a Triple Crown Clicker today and in the information pack there was a picture of a Triple Crown collar that looked very much like a Prong Collar Click here to read info and see video. What are your thoughts? Edited November 5, 2006 by sas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 From what I have read on these they ARE a plastic prong collar but I have heard they don't seem to work as well as the traditional metal ones? Because of the way they look and the design they are obviously geared towards avoiding the problems of appearance that plaque the prong collar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassie Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 Before I got a metal prong collar, I tried one similar to that on Zephyr (didn't buy it, just borrowed it for a trial) and it basically did nothing. The plastic prongs couldn't quite get through his thick mane to have any effect on him, and his fur tended to get a bit tangled in them. But having said this, you have a Dane right? So you probably wouldn't have the same problem with the short coat. Then again, perhaps they are more for "light" pullers, not such large or heavy dogs? Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted November 5, 2006 Author Share Posted November 5, 2006 Oh, I'm not looking for myself, I have a normal prong and am more than happy with it. My girl (dane) just goes on a martingale as it is. Just interested in peoples thoughts on a plastic prong collar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 I have used it, dint really like it. The spikes are a lot sharper tahn the metal ones, the collar itself looked like it could fall appart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitKat Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 I've also seen them called a 'Good Dog Collar' - personally i'm not in favour of them but i've never used them so... *shrug* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylieandpossum Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 i have tried not to say anything about this for fear of getting flamed but i dont think i can stay quiet. firstly it strikes me as ironic that a company selling devices to enable positive reinforcement training like a clicker also sells prong collars. i know ethics in business is an anomoly but i dont even buy kramar stuff because they make/import electronic collars. it s***ts me no end that the rspca shops sell their stuff. secondly it bothers me that people think that using things that will hurt their dogs in order to teach tricks and earn ribbons is ok. there is no sort of heeling or other trick training that can not be done without a clicker if the handler works at it properly and long enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 Kylie, Im affraid your comments are greatly uneducated. Have you used an e-collar yourself? Have you tested one on yourself? Have you tried a prong collar? Have you tested one on yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylieandpossum Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Kylie,Im affraid your comments are greatly uneducated. Have you used an e-collar yourself? Have you tested one on yourself? Have you tried a prong collar? Have you tested one on yourself? why would i? its got sharp bits sticking out of it. ecollars have electronic currents in them. its going to hurt. dont tell me it doesnt hurt a dog. if it didnt, then why wouldnt you just use a flat collar? what would be the use of it? aversion training only works if it hurts or scares the dog in some way. but continue to defend it till youre blue in the face, makes no difference to me. i was just expressing an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 Im sure that your opinon makes no difference to those that are experienced with the tools. Just like you are free to have and express your opinion about something, other have the same right. And untill you are blue in the face telling others how a prong collar or an ecollar huts the dog (that is of course based on some theory YOU developed, not an actual experience) others (myself including) will defend the use of a prong and ecollar. Shall we try? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 KylieandPossum I agree in that everyone is entitled to their opinion. And in my opinion, I think that we should clicker train sheep to herd themselves so they are not scared and put under undue stress or nipped at by herding dogs just to win ribbons! :D My genuine oppologys, couldnt resist As long as you are being fair and the dog is enjoying what he is doing, there is nothing wrong with aversive methods. My dog certainly loves training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylieandpossum Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 (edited) KylieandPossumI agree in that everyone is entitled to their opinion. And in my opinion, I think that we should clicker train sheep to herd themselves so they are not scared and put under undue stress or nipped at by herding dogs just to win ribbons! My genuine oppologys, couldnt resist im not exactly sure whats funny about that or why you would direct it at me - just cos i do herding and clicker training doesnt mean i do both together, in fact ive said elsewhere here that clicker training and herding dont work. and i dont think your "oppology" is genuine so lets not bother with pretending to be nice when youre busy attacking someone. again, i think its interesting that to defend a method of dog training you have to denigrate or personally attack the person you dont agree with. whatever. :D oh and i dont do herding for ribbons., not sure where you got that from Edited November 11, 2006 by kylieandpossum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jibba Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 I have used all methods of training mentioned in this thread and i too agree that the prong collars arent as affective as positive training. This comes from 21 yrs of dog training in all fields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 Kylieandpossum Just could not work out your line of standards concerning what you might consider cruelty, when you dont seem to have any problem with your dogs herding sheep. Im sure the sheep dont enjoy the fun in a herding trial. Is their well being a concern to you as your dogs well being are? Perhaps I misunderstood something but it seems like double standards to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylieandpossum Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 KylieandpossumJust could not work out your line of standards concerning what you might consider cruelty, when you dont seem to have any problem with your dogs herding sheep. Im sure the sheep dont enjoy the fun in a herding trial. Is their well being a concern to you as your dogs well being are? Perhaps I misunderstood something but it seems like double standards to me. so are you a vegetarian because youre so opposed to animal cruelty? im cruel to sheep so its ok to be cruel to dogs (of which i never accused anyone, by the way)? i dont know if herding is cruel to sheep - somedays i think it is. i was brought up on a working farm and it can get pretty harsh yes. wherever there was a way to do things gently it was taken. same with herding. my dog doesnt nip sheep and i keep her away from them when she is too full on by voice or body language. before the sheep get tired we change them over. when its too hot we stop. but we arent talking about sheep are we? deliberately clouding the issue doesnt help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 KylieandPossum I think you expected a reaction to your attack on aversive methods and I wanted to point out that if used fairly, there is nothing wrong with them. I use a combination of both positive and aversive with good results. I also worked on a mixed Dairy/Beef farm for a number of years and have no problem with farming or herding. There is no malace intended even no I knew you would be offended. Just a poor attempt at being light hearted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylieandpossum Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 KylieandPossumI think you expected a reaction to your attack on aversive methods and I wanted to point out that if used fairly, there is nothing wrong with them. I use a combination of both positive and aversive with good results. I also worked on a mixed Dairy/Beef farm for a number of years and have no problem with farming or herding. There is no malace intended even no I knew you would be offended. Just a poor attempt at being light hearted. im not offended - the tone here since i spoke has been pretty hostile so i assumed yours was in the same vein - in my experience speaking against aversive methods only ever provokes hostility (which is perhaps not surprising). i can get fired up myself when i feel strongly abut something. a genuine question then, is what do you think fairly is when using aversive methods. we also have a very strong willed cattle dog who sometimes only responds when spoken to harshly and i would like to use a gentle voice with him all the time. but i think there is a mistaken belief that positive reinforcement training means permissive, and we are not that at all. so i would be interested in what you actually mean by aversive and where you draw the line. i read somewhere that aversive methods are only affective if you use it once and the dog then stops what it was doing and you never have to use it again. what is your experience of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassie Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 I will defend the prong collar for the rest of my days! :D I only recently acquired one and the impact it has had on my dog is truly amazing. MANY other people on here could tell a similar story. And there are some people on here that were 110% AGAINST using them, simply because they didn't understand them, but now they have them and love them and would never look back. (I'm not saying this will be you by the way! ) In my experience, the main use of the prong collar is for dogs that are difficult to control on lead, usually because they pull. The prong collar allows you to give your dog a quick and effective correction that DOES NOT cause any pain/harm to the dog when issued correctly. I strongly recommend you read the following very imformative article on these training tools: http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=prong.html (LOL - how many times has this link been posted now!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted November 11, 2006 Author Share Posted November 11, 2006 (edited) If you feel you have got a hostile response that is because that is the way you have decided to take it. Also when you say things such as you wouldn't use a prong because it is sharp and hurts the dog. What gave you the impression that the prongs are sharp? Do you think that the prongs penetrate the dogs skin and if they pull to hard they may peirce the skin? When starting a dog on an e-collar you have to test it to find the dogs working level, that split second where it shows some sort of response that may be so subtle that you may even notice it. Now take that collar off the dog and put it on yourself and it's surprising to people who have never tried them to realise that they A) don't even feel the stim. or B) It kinda tickles....so why is it that you think e-collars have to put the dog in pain? I personaly think it's more appropriate to not make comments that pretty much call people cruel unless you've first hand experience. I personaly respect anyone's opinion that doesn't agree with mine if they have tried it themselves under proffessional guidence. Postive training is great and is well suitable to some dogs. Actually there isn't such thing as 100% positive training, as just witholding the praise is negative. I don't think any well respected trainer would tell you 100% positive training is the only method suitable for all dogs. Edited November 11, 2006 by sas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 i too agree that the prong collars arent as affective as positive training. Your 21 year experience obviously excluded combining of the use of a collar WITH positive training. Perhaps this is why you didnt have a lot of success :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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