Barking Then Howling When I Am Not Home

[Muttly]

Hi, I foster and have three of my own. 2 of mine are the problem though likely in part from stress of foster/pack changes etc.

One is a Kelpie Diesel I adopted, adult male already quite mad when arrived - bee chasing, shadows etc, had been I assume a bored only dog, has strong working drives.

Second culprit one of my BC's female adult. Bella has always been very protective of property when I am not home in particular, and I live next to a laneway.

Bella has always howled at harmonica and sirens.

Diesel when he gets very excited (someone he knows arriving) will excited bark but recently then move into howling which Bella joins with and they feed off each other...

Recently they have started to do this when protective barking when someone goes past when I am not home. ANd apparently go on for awhile

They rarely bark when I am home, and not for long and certainly don't howl...

I think they need more activity, more exercise perhaps but overall I am at a bit of a loss to what to do as I am not here when they offend. I think that citronella wouldn't do much with these two monkeys.

Any suggestions re/ barking collars etc? Thanks

Edited November 3, 2006 by ARF Muttly

[Muttly]

Would be good to hear from anyone who has had protection drive turn to howling.

[Mornir]

Sounds like they like the sound of their own voices :D

Exercise will help. Perhaps walk them to a local park each morning, let them have an off lead run (if that is an option) and do a few minutes worth of obedience with them?

Then leave things for them during the day. kongs, treat ball home alone toy etc. Sandpit with toys and treaties hidden in it? They won't know they've found everything, they'll keep looking

Having said that. I have no idea what you currently do. Would you mind telling us what you do now?

[Muttly]

Working, studying, parenting I am home a lot. But it isn't Sep. anxiety. The trigger is someone going past the laneway and the barks turning into a hell cacophany. I have three busy and vocal working dogs. I am told it only happens when someone goes past the house. My 'problem' BC has always been very vocall, it is just that she and the kelpie have hooked up and found this propensity to howl and bark together. They recently started to do it when people they are attached to visit. I would never have imagined in my wildest dreams that protection barking also is crescending into this. It is a recent discovery.

I have only had Diesel the silly black Kelpie since August.

My other girls had had about 15 months of foster dogs here by the time he arrived. They formed a pretty tight pack through the last three months and he hasn't really caught on to this whole idea of dogs coming and going. Is stressed as they are. I am going to have a break soon.

Exercise is curtailed due to snakes at the moment, it is a very bad area with several dogs dead. Might be neurotic but I feel I can't chance much as I am over 20minutes froma vet. I know I need to leave more interactive toys etc, I am not away often for long periods, maybe couple of times a week for 2-6 hours. Often less, shorter trips, greater frequency.

Once this foster re-homes, I can put some time into training, 1:1 and having more bones etc around. But I am concerned that this howling business sounds to have become habitual. I have a neighbour who is very dog-friendly and he hadn't complained to me. I asked him as a matter of course how the noise levels were as I have a few fosters come and go - I never anticipated that my own were a problem. And then when I heard it while walking up the street..... It is de-barking material.

So particularly re/ collars etc I would love some advice. I can implement greater exercise (I'll just have to drive a fair way) and more interactive play toys. But this 'aren't we great sounding like the Hounds of the Baskervilles'...

I have tried putting them on my deck. Diesel just jumps the 2.5 off it, but at least they are separated. And that worked for two days. Then the 'problem' BC barked for 20 minutes at apparently nothing yesterday....

Edited November 3, 2006 by ARF Muttly

[Mooper]

So you've tried citronella and it did nothing? I've borrowed a collar from a sheepherding friend and will be trying it with Jack in the car this weekend :D

My plan for him, if that doesn't work, is to get in touch with K9-Force about an Innotek anti-barking collar but I need to find out whether it's legal to purchase one as a resident in my council area.

Treatwise and activity-wise, I find that Jack spends a good 30 minutes batting his Buster Cube about of a morning to get 2/3c of kibble out of it. I bought mine from the Save a Dog Scheme shop -- Jude is wonderfully helpful. She also sells the Buster Fun Bone, Jack's new favourite toy (although he has it inside) which he also dotes over in 20-30 minute intervals.

Hope that helps ...

[Muttly]

Thanks Mooper, just sme of it is complicated by having 4-5 dogs here. Without fosters mine can do the treat balls, marrowbones etc. I don't want to stop fostering, but also don't want to divide my block up. Let me know how you go with the collar enquiry - I am NSW. I have very little hope in Citronella - have not tried it yet, but the zone they go into I think might be Citronella-proof - at least once they empty the cannister..

i used to have such well behaved dogs.....

[petmezz]

hi muttly

why not try a desencitisation program??

try remote trainers??

can you house your "problem dogs" in the gerage will out?? that way you can give them bones, kongs and stuff, they can't see people walking by, and if the do bark at least the sound is muffled.

deffinatly exercise them they need this more then other dogs.

it is late i will have more idears tomorrow

[KOE]

have you tried fencing them away from the laneway so they cant see people if all else fails buy all the neighbours earplugs :D

[Muttly]

thanks for the ideas. yes fencing off might be an option, or moving to a house with no laneway:( Yes I am aware of the issues with exercise, it is just hard re/ snakes, but then I had one go through my yard the other day, so I probably just have to move on. They can die by snake bite or howling barking. I could try the garage as well. I guess I was just hoping there might be some nifty new collar on the market... as well as putting in some more time (aside from a heck of a lot more company than most dogs get). Working breeds...

[Mooper]

I believe that the collars require a fair bit of training to be put in, too. I've been putting the citronella collar on Jack for 10 mins, 20 mins, 30 mins at a time with it turned off. Just to get him used to its presence.

Tomorrow when we drive to town for the Walk Against Warming, I'm switching it on with a new battery and full canister

Have you discussed your dogs' change in behaviour with Sean at any point, Muttly? Not being a fosterererer for any length of time, Jack's behaviour doesn't tend to change much.

A break sounds like it would do you and the dogs the world of good :D

[MrsD]

You're right Muttley, as you pointed out the problem arises because the behaviours stem from something that happens when you arent present. IMO, the protection barking would probably override any distraction provided by a bone or toy anyway, especially as both are together & wind each other up.

If you dont want to use the electric barking collars that are available, have you looked at the remote training collars instead? I know that there is a Big Dog remote training collar that covers a distance of up to 400m. If you can tell their barks apart you may be able to use one effectively if you put one on them & "left" the house & snuck back to catch them at it. With that sort of radius you could still stand well out of sight & smell & give the correction necessary. Maybe even set them up to have a neighbour walk down the laneway since that seems to be the trigger & then use the correction? :D

Sorry I cant suggest more, I guess it really depends on whether you can organise things like new fencing, putting them in garages etc or not. If not, then the training collar might be worth a try. You should be able to find somewhere that will hire them down there.

EFS

Edited November 3, 2006 by MrsD

[Muttly]

Thanks MrsD 400 metre radius sounds pretty good. I have to find what is available here, electric collars are I think illegal so the BigDog thingy might be too:(Sean has met most of my pack and could see stress levels whilst Souxie the foster dog was here. They relaxed a lot after her but certainly need a break now.

Edited November 3, 2006 by ARF Muttly

[MrsD]

Thanks MrsD 400 metre radius sounds pretty good. I have to find what is available here, electric collars are I think illegal so the BigDog thingy might be too:(Sean has met most of my pack and could see stress levels whilst Souxie the foster dog was here. They relaxed a lot after her but certainly need a break now.

Ahhhh I didnt know that electric collars were banned down there (when are they EVER going to make uniform rules about stuff like that?), my advice is pretty well worthless then, sorry :laugh: .

[mita]

Some suggestions...re the facts that the barking/howling happens in response to folk walking by...& to visits from people they like.

1. If the dogs use their voices in any way to get your attention in the course of everyday life, turn your back on them. Total ignore. Only give them anything they like...attention, eye contact, pats, treats...when they are quiet. Intelligent dogs soon get the message. It's quiet, not noise that brings good things...as a general rule.

That could be applied by the people the dogs like when they visit. So get their cooperation.

2. Can you get the cooperation of a neighbour to do the following...or allow you on their property next door to do it?

Someone (you or a cooperative neighbour) hidden from sight, uses something that makes one hell of a clanging noise, at first sound of the dog's barking. No human voices. Just a hell of a crashing noise, at first peep or howl. You might have to get other neighbours understanding & cooperation in doing so.

3. Can you close off the part of your yard that allows the dogs to see the people going by? The dogs are using their voices to 'herd' those passing 'sheep' along. So, if they can't see them...

Also can you leave a radio playing (talking station) out of chewing range near the dogs? Sound of human voices may divert their attention from being on the alert for passing 'sheep' to organzie.

4. You seen to have covered the territory with activities for the dogs to do when you're out. Keep looking for new things like that. Their own sandpit with buried treat pieces to do some digging.

Also daily exercise really seems to help tremendously.

5. Get advice from someone that knows, how to teach the dogs to bark only on command. I've never done that...but I've heard dog behaviourists describe it.

Edited November 4, 2006 by mita

[jemappelle]

I have just ordered a stop barking box thingy I will let you know if it works or not. My problem is the neighbour's dog barks whenever someone is near our joint fence which sets mine off.

I am hoping this will stop the other dog barking as well as, unfortunately, the owners never try to stop their dog from barking.

Here is a link to what I have ordered. PetSafe also makes a similar one and is seen on Ebay quite often.

http://www.gooddeals.com/shopexd.asp_Q_id_E_244

[Muttly]

Thanks everyone for some good ideas. Mita I do what you list in the first point, except to tell them to be quiet if barking goes beyond a short period, which they obey.

I might have to look at blocking off part of the yard and seeing how that goes. In summer the garage gets very hot, it is just uninsulated metal. Keep the ideas coming!! And Jemappelle would love to hear how the collar goes.

[jemappelle]

And Jemappelle would love to hear how the collar goes.

This one is not a collar,it is a box to put in the area, and is supposed to be effective for multiple dogs. I hope it works

[Mooper]

Well, I'm pleased to say that our first use of the citronella collar while it was switched on and full appears to have been a success

As I think I said earlier, I've been putting the collar on Jack without switching it on, just to get him used to it. Today I put it on him full, then we hopped in the car (his worst barking offences happen there ) and I turned the collar on before heading out.

After one big WOOF the spray squirted up under Jack's chin and he stopped for a moment. I clicked and treated the silence.

And so it went. Quiet for a while, with plenty of verbal praise at those times. Then if he couldn't take the excitement and barked again, the collar would squirt him, he'd get a surprise, I would say "quiet" and click/treat.

So if you do try a citronella collar, Muttly, in your situation it's sounding like you'd need an agreeable neighbour to help you as Mita suggested. And if you use a clicker, I don't see the harm in reinforcing rewards for silence at times of excitement etc.

I borrowed my collar, but I know the Qbn Pound and I think DAS rent them out -- does your Council do the same? In which case you could use it on the worst offender and hope the silence spreads to the other dogs?

[mita]

Thanks everyone for some good ideas. Mita I do what you list in the first point, except to tell them to be quiet if barking goes beyond a short period, which they obey.

/quote]

Also try the hell of a sudden noise from within the house...if you're inside & the dogs outside.

Have a couple of metal pans at the ready to whack. .

The trick with using the hell of a noise at first bark, works because dogs get the message that it's their bark that triggers this mystery, scary noise. So it's got in-built prevention.

It's a 'noise' version of the nasty- stimulus shock that citronella collars give via 'smell'.

No harm in using both...at different times, of course.

I agree with Mooper that it's good to keep your neighbours up to date with any bark-lessening strategies you're using...because they've got a vested interest in being tolerant & cooperative while you do it. You also get brownie points for being a responsible & considerate dog-owner.

(The mystery big noise trick is also a good one to tell neighbours who want to know how to shut a dog up if it barks while owner is out. Works better than a human voice...which actually is a reward with attention. No rewards for a dog in a scarey noise they can't see.)

[Muttly]

yes they just got the mystery glass of water when a friend arrived a little while ago, no howling, all noise ceased. Will try the scary noise and invest in a supersoaker for my neighbour:)