leopuppy04 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 I know there are dogs who do the course (or another activity) for food or tug...I'm just not sure mine is one of them. I am not disputing that she finds tugging rewarding, just whether it is "the reward" & whether in fact it is possible for a dog to find the ultimate reward in the work rather than something external to the work.. I often get asked questions about motivating dogs, my response is that the ultimate motivator will often differ depending on the dog and that it is important to find your dogs unique customised food/game. Unfortunately many people aren't willing to go to the lengths sometimes necessary to find/train that "ultimate" & it shows in what they get from their dog. Thoughts? What do you consider your dogs ultimate reward is? I hear what you are saying *g*! My dog is 1/2 and 1/2 - he partly does the agility course for the reward as well as running around with me and the enjoyment of actually doing the course. You can tell that the agility course is rewarding in itself for him as he would do it all day without a reward, whereas for obedience, the reward needs to come sooner or later *g*! I find that his 'ultimate' reward changes with what we are doing as well as his mood. If he is hungry - obviously food wins all. Usually I find in agility - chasing the ball after a run is the BEST. Likewise with obedience - after a long run of concentration in the ring - there is nothing like a good game with a toy. He loves raw meat too - but that can distract him a little - so it tends to be the BIG reward at the end and not a 'training' reward as he can become to erratic. But honestly - he LOVES food (we mug strangers for it), but sometimes a good 'ol play wins over, and if I honestly look at it - a lot of the time that is the final reward her really waits for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 you then are unable to distinguish between wanted and unwanted performance without an aversive. For example, dog doesn't stick a contact. If the dog is rewarded by doing agility and you ask it to do the obstacle again, it's being rewarded for coming off the contact. This is one situation where it can be appropriate not to end training on a 'high note' or a win i.e. give a NRM and end the training session. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted November 1, 2006 Author Share Posted November 1, 2006 WOW, so much to respond to...such a small lunch hour to do it in, LOL. Some very interesting points raised, thanks everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 you then are unable to distinguish between wanted and unwanted performance without an aversive. For example, dog doesn't stick a contact. If the dog is rewarded by doing agility and you ask it to do the obstacle again, it's being rewarded for coming off the contact. This is one situation where it can be appropriate not to end training on a 'high note' or a win i.e. give a NRM and end the training session. My thoughts exactly - and believe me it works . I use it for 'trick' training also when my dog just gets so carried away and excited that he no longer thinks and starts barking at me and trying to do all tricks at once (speak, Bang and wave all at once is NOT what I asked for!). It sort of ends their fun and they do tend to 'think' about it - "hang on - why did it end.... I was enjoying myself"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 K9: I feel that through conditioning, the dogs gain a higher value of the excercise due to the end reward, just like training any excerise, you use the tug for example to give the excercise a higher value, until the excercise itself becomes rewarding & the tug most likely wont be required. It would depend on what the dog does after the run, if it runs to you for the tug, I wouldn't stop tugging... If it doesnt, I would.. I personall feel though tha stimulain the dogs drive before the run is better for control & speed then the tug afte on is own... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted November 1, 2006 Author Share Posted November 1, 2006 (edited) K9: I feel that through conditioning, the dogs gain a higher value of the exercise due to the end reward, just like training any exercise, you use the tug for example to give the exercise a higher value, until the exercise itself becomes rewarding & the tug most likely wont be required. Yes, that is exactly what I feel has happened It would depend on what the dog does after the run, if it runs to you for the tug, I wouldn't stop tugging... If it doesnt, I would.. My dog generally runs to me for the tug (unless she thinks we may do the course agin immediately & then she lines up) but this I guess was my original question. I don't feel that the running to me for tug is a "reward". I think of it more as a release, a habit if you like. I started doing it because it enabled me to get her collar & lead on and keep her attention on me while the ring recommences. She likes it b/c it is what we always do, it is fun & it is the next best thing to going back in the ring. Most importantly I think it gives her something to do with all that post run adrenalin. I personally feel though that stimulating the dogs drive before the run is better for control & speed than the tug after on its own... I can see what you are saying here. I think it kind of depends on the dog though. If a dog is already at a level 8-10 (of a 1-10 drive rating) going into the ring, what benefit would it serve? Edited November 1, 2006 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted November 1, 2006 Author Share Posted November 1, 2006 I recently read Susan Garrett's "Shaping Success" and she addresses tugging or not tugging, taking food or not taking food, but not in terms of motivating for agility, but for training. She describes the way her dog Buzz became so motivated by agility that he stopped taking rewards. The problem she saw with this is that you then are unable to distinguish between wanted and unwanted performance without an aversive. Do you/she consider a NRM an aversive? I always struggle with this concept. It always makes me think of 2 extremes: A dog who is always externally rewarded & never gets aversive but the reward is medium-high level. A dog who is not externally rewarded but very rewarded by activity & gets NRMs. It would be very easy for the 2nd of these 2 to be the more motivated & consistent dog. Personally I use NRMs but I always think of them as communication rather than aversive. If you have a biddable dog who want to work for you, I think they see them as communication. Maybe they see them as aversives but bounce back quickly? LOL, I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 V: My dog generally runs to me for the tug (unless she thinks we may do the course agin immediately & then she lines up) but this I guess was my original question. I don't feel that the running to me for tug is a "reward". I think of it more as a release, a habit if you like. I started doing it because it enabled me to get her collar & lead on and keep her attention on me while the ring recommences. She likes it b/c it is what we always do, it is fun & it is the next best thing to going back in the ring. K9: yes, this is what is known as a tertiary or maybe a secondary reward, going back to you & yo touching the dogs collar is what is required for the game to begin again. Another thing is that when you use a prey item as a reward, the most important part is the free command which should allow the dog to start tuggin, it becomes a reward (secondary) on its on... V: I can see what you are saying here. I think it kind of depends on the dog though. If a dog is already at a level 8-10 (of a 1-10 drive rating) going into the ring, what benefit would it serve? K9: It will make the 8/10 dog a 10/10 dog & the 10/10 dog 12/10. If the dog likes the jumps it may not be focussed on getting the course run as fast as possible, if you hold the most rewarding thing to the dog & say "go run that course & you can have it". The course will be run faster, if the accuracy drops off the dog doesnt ge the reward either.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 V: Do you/she consider a NRM an aversive? K9: of course. it tells the dog i isnt getting paid.. V: A dog who is always externally rewarded & never gets aversive but the reward is medium-high level.A dog who is not externally rewarded but very rewarded by activity & gets NRMs. It would be very easy for the 2nd of these 2 to be the more motivated & consistent dog. K9" yes which is why I like to control the rewards myself, & steer away from self rewarding training methods. Self rewarding training methods can easily see you & your NRM turn into part of the problem not the solution... V: Personally I use NRMs but I always think of them as communication rather than aversive. If you have a biddable dog who want to work for you, I think they see them as communication. Maybe they see them as aversives but bounce back quickly? LOL, I don't know. K9: NRM should not be conveyed as punishment, but guidance, "no your not getting paid but have another go..." This stimulates the dog very quickly to get driven again... PS: A dog that wants to work for you doesnt exist IMO, dogs that work for you so they get something from you, pat/praise (pack drive), food, or toy (prey drive), I seen millions of them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Do you/she consider a NRM an aversive? NRM if used in its correct technical sense is a marker for "no reward", i.e. negative punishment, taking away something it wants, or not giving something it was expecting. Some dogs cope better with this than others. They can be demotivating for some dogs. IMO if they are effective they would be providing the dog with an incentive to NOT repeat behaviour, which would mean that in some way to the dog it is aversive. They want to avoid it. If the dog doesn't care then it's not effective. Another thing to mention with punishment is that it says "don't do that" but in itself it does not say "do this". K9: yes, this is what is known as a tertiary or maybe a secondary reward, going back to you & yo touching the dogs collar is what is required for the game to begin again. The Susan Garrett book mentions this with Buzz - that tug for him meant that he got another chance to go do agility again. This is one situation where it can be appropriate not to end training on a 'high note' or a win i.e. give a NRM and end the training session. My thoughts exactly - and believe me it works tongue.gif. I use it for 'trick' training also when my dog just gets so carried away and excited that he no longer thinks and starts barking at me and trying to do all tricks at once IMO one of the effects of this is that the dog also has a chance to reduce its level of stimulation/excitement and get back into the learning zone ... K9 describes this very effectively. K9" yes which is why I like to control the rewards myself, & steer away from self rewarding training methods. Self rewarding training methods can easily see you & your NRM turn into part of the problem not the solution... NRMs can turn 6/10 dogs to 1 or 0/10 dogs (seen it, done it , don't want to go there again), potentially could turn a 10/10 dog into an 8/10 dog ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Toys on sticks: I recently bought one of these. I had made previously make one with a lunge pole (too long) and a buggy whip (too breakable). Got all my dogs turned on pretty well. Oooooh I want one of those Did you get it from them or someone else? How much to get it here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Got it from Clean Run. Do the shopping cart thing and stop before you get to the payment bit ... that'll tell you the postage. I generally get more than one thing at a time, I got the two handled sheepy tug and the two handled rabbit fur covered tug as well, and a second Treat and Train, although the T&T is coming separately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Oh cool, are you happy with all those? Any that are better or not as good as you though? They all look good, wonder if the tugs would stand up to staffords?! lol At least the flirt stick they won't constantly be chewing on it so not such a problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 (edited) Rabbit fur covered one has got all the dogs interested, and helped with the desire to tug. It's not designed for hard tuggers and I've not used it with my hard tuggers. Sheepskin one I've not used all that much yet, as the rabbit fur one has been such a hit. Have a look at the site, there are a lot of motivational toys listed there, some for hard tuggers. Some of the things you can get equivalents of in Aussie, but some I've only found O.S. BTW if you do agility you can subscibe to the Clean Run magazine in electronic format for only 20USD per annum - began at the start of this year, you can do it retrospectively. BTW (again) the dog would not be "chewing" on a tug, it would be gripping it and tugging, but not chewing ... I don't leave mine for the dogs to chew!!! If I did the rabbit fur would be in little tiny pieces ... I've had three of my ugg boots disembowelled when I've forgotten to put them out of reach. Got a bit OT here, back to the main event? ... Edited November 1, 2006 by sidoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted November 1, 2006 Author Share Posted November 1, 2006 (edited) NRMs can turn 6/10 dogs to 1 or 0/10 dogs (seen it, done it , don't want to go there again), potentially could turn a 10/10 dog into an 8/10 dog ... Or they could keep a 10/10 at a 10/10. K9: It will make the 8/10 dog a 10/10 dog & the 10/10 dog 12/10. If the dog likes the jumps it may not be focussed on getting the course run as fast as possible, if you hold the most rewarding thing to the dog & say "go run that course & you can have it". The course will be run faster, if the accuracy drops off the dog doesnt ge the reward either.... LOL, believe it or not, I think there are plenty of dogs currently running their optimum speed. Try running 17 obstacles (+the 4 metres in between) in 13/14 seconds flat. The dogs physical speed is only half the equation. As a handler you need to be able to think & communicate at that speed as well. Just like the dogs I think we can reach an optimum level at which we can do this (and some days we just perform way below our optimum, despite what the dog gives). Edited November 1, 2006 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 V: LOL, believe it or not, I think there are plenty of dogs currently running their optimum speed. Try running 17 obstacles (+the 4 metres in between) in 13/14 seconds flat. K9: I know what you mean but, I have been told by so many, "my dog cant go faster, cant perform better, cant do that", but they did... V: The dogs physical speed is only half the equation. As a handler you need to be able to think & communicate at that speed as well. K9: the more driven the dog is to get the excercise right, the less the handler will have to do... At the end of the day, the only dog that cant do it faultless, is a perfect dog, & we all know there are no perfect dogs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardog Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 (edited) K9: At the end of the day, the only dog that cant do it faultless, is a perfect dog, & we all know there are no perfect dogs... I beg to differ on this quote Steve..... just ask Andrew ;) Edited November 1, 2006 by Sardog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Do you/she consider a NRM an aversive? Depends what you mean as an aversive..... does the dog not want to work because of it? No. But it is some form of 'punishment' otherwise it wouldn't work. I dont' think it 'effects' the dog in anyway otherwise they wouldn't want to 'try again' IMO. So much as witholding the reward is a punishment. Personally I use NRMs but I always think of them as communication rather than aversive. If you have a biddable dog who want to work for you, I think they see them as communication. Maybe they see them as aversives but bounce back quickly? LOL, I don't know. Thats more along the lines I also think of it as many people see the word 'aversive' or 'punishment' and think that you are belting your dog or something. But honestly, it is a communication tool IMO to tell the dog that what they are doing is not going to get them anything and to 'try again'..... sometimes I think that if I didn't use this, my dog would just repeatedly offer the same thing, trying harder and harder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 SD: I beg to differ on this quote Steve..... just ask Andrew K9: rofl.. I suppose there are perfect cars too, other than the GT? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 (edited) I dont' think it 'effects' the dog in anyway otherwise they wouldn't want to 'try again' IMO. This really depends on the dog. Some dogs WILL be affected ... you can see the difference. Other dogs, you may not see a difference, but I have to wonder if there is fallout that is not seen. I think you have to have balance. Any time you don't reward the dog and it thinks you will (or might?), there is an effect. Some of the effect is to make the dog try harder, at least for a bit, hence being able to shape. Too much though, and the dog will stop trying. If you put a verbal to it, that's another layer. And since the dog (hopefully) has a connection to the handler, it potentially can be a layer that will have a greater effect than withholding a reward. It may affect the relationship in some way. When I first learned about NRMs I thought they made a lot of sense. I had only Vizslas in those days. (My current 10yo girl obtained her CD at about 14months with 4/4 passes, 3 wins, fully clicker trained, one of the first in Australia - of course it's progressed a lot since then, in numbers doing it and in sophistication of techniques.) I learned that there was only so much NRM they could take. Also there is a danger (and a mistake that I made) of giving an NRM instead of creatively thinking, "how can I give the dog more information about what it SHOULD be doing, or set up the conditions differently, so that it can get it right?" Recently I was training my fosters in the V weaves, with a restrained start and driving through them to a baited plate at the end, and the NRM I gave was to pick up the food the moment they popped out of the weaves (if they did). I decided no verbal NRM, particularly since one of them, while fast, is very soft. The greater information for success I gave was to draw the food down the centre of the poles for at least part of the way, to show the path. And if they repeated the mistake, widen the poles or change the environment in some other way in order for them to succeed. Now I'm not rewriting the training manuals there, but just describing a situation where I could have had a verbal NRM, but went for something more low key. We know of the 80/20 rule - i.e. aim for an 80% success rate. Although I think some dogs may do better with say 90/10. This refers to balance as mentioned above. Know your dog would be the maxim. Now a more hard or driven dog might be less affected by an NRM. The only dog I ever had like that was my cattle dog long before I did any dog training. So I can't comment from personal experience. But I would question whether there is a possibility of unnoticed fallout if the balance veers away from positive reinforcement and towards negative punishment. Edited November 1, 2006 by sidoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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