Ultimate Rewards

[Vickie]

I have been thinking about this a bit since the weekend & wanted to hear others views on it.

A number of people commented on Trim's tugging after her runs at agility trials on the weekend. Most comments were centred around tugging being her reward for agility. She is a very enthusiastic tugger & it's what we do when she finishes a run. She loves to tug at any time (except before we go in the ring), but never quite as enthusiastically as after a run.

It got me wondering whether it really is a reward for her or not. I tend to think of it as more of a release mechanism than an actual reward, something to focus all that after-run adrenalin on (for both of us). It's a minute or 2 where nothing else exists for either of us, except the game we are playing. I don't believe she ever does agility just to get the tug, I think her reward is doing the course with me. I seem to remember a discussion a long time ago about this but can't remember the details.

I know there are dogs who do the course (or another activity) for food or tug...I'm just not sure mine is one of them. I am not disputing that she finds tugging rewarding, just whether it is "the reward" & whether in fact it is possible for a dog to find the ultimate reward in the work rather than something external to the work..

I often get asked questions about motivating dogs, my response is that the ultimate motivator will often differ depending on the dog and that it is important to find your dogs unique customised food/game. Unfortunately many people aren't willing to go to the lengths sometimes necessary to find/train that "ultimate" & it shows in what they get from their dog.

Thoughts?

What do you consider your dogs ultimate reward is?

[Kavik]

Motivation is something I am always thinking about! You put up some very interesting points.

The problems I am having with Diesel I think stem from motivation problems - I am having problems finding something that really makes him want to go! He will work for treats, but at times not as well or as fast as I know he can. He won't work reliably for toys. He likes pats, and is more pat and praise oriented than my other dogs, but I don't know if he will perform just for that? Or maybe he is just a slower dog? When he gets going he can be fast and work well, it is just hard trying to figure out what does it for him.

[Staranais]

Would your dog run the course as enthusiastically if you stopped rewarding her with tug, Vickie? Just wondering.

As for me and my staffy, one of the major problems I have with him is that his very favourite things tend to be really antisocial things. Things like bullying or fighting certain other dogs, chasing and killing birds and small animals (not cats though). These things seem to really get him going, more than anything else, so I guess these things would be his "ultimate motivator" if only it was possible to use them in training! As it is, I'm trying to alter his reward hierachy by making tugtoys his ultimate motivator, so I can work him in prey drive around other dogs and small animals (currently muddling through a drive building programme with the help of K9 Force!) I'm hoping that the adrenaline rush of the drive reward will be a good substitute for the rush he gets from his more anti social activities.

Not sure if that was what you were getting at?

[Vickie]

Motivation is something I am always thinking about! You put up some very interesting points.

The problems I am having with Diesel I think stem from motivation problems - I am having problems finding something that really makes him want to go! He will work for treats, but at times not as well or as fast as I know he can. He won't work reliably for toys. He likes pats, and is more pat and praise oriented than my other dogs, but I don't know if he will perform just for that? Or maybe he is just a slower dog? When he gets going he can be fast and work well, it is just hard trying to figure out what does it for him.

Just out of curiosity, how many variations on treats have you tried Kavik? I just remembered a funny story. A friend of mine teaches agility, she had a student come for a lesson one day with a dog she didn't feel was sufficiently motivated by the wide variety of treats she had brougt to the lesson. The student was made to go home & asked to return the next day with the BIGGEST cooked steak she could find for another lesson. I saw the before and after dog...it was truly amazing what a couple of months training with a giant steak did to that dog.

[Kavik]

I have tried cheese, cabanossi, chicken, turkey.

Unfortunately at the moment we are doing an elimination diet to see if he has food allergies so he is stuck with z/d for 4 more weeks . He works as well for that as anything else So I'm not sure the kind of treat is the problem. It also doesn't matter whether he is hungry or not.

He works well when at training, at the park, and when I get home from work. But new locations, when I am out with OH who he adores, at trials or fun days with lots of other dogs etc he gets very distracted and I can't get him to focus.

I don't think my OH would be impressed if I said we had to get steak for the dog's treats

[Vickie]

Would your dog run the course as enthusiastically if you stopped rewarding her with tug, Vickie? Just wondering.

As for me and my staffy, one of the major problems I have with him is that his very favourite things tend to be really antisocial things. Things like bullying or fighting certain other dogs, chasing and killing birds and small animals (not cats though). These things seem to really get him going, more than anything else, so I guess these things would be his "ultimate motivator" if only it was possible to use them in training! As it is, I'm trying to alter his reward hierachy by making tugtoys his ultimate motivator, so I can work him in prey drive around other dogs and small animals (currently muddling through a drive building programme with the help of K9 Force!) I'm hoping that the adrenaline rush of the drive reward will be a good substitute for the rush he gets from his more anti social activities.

Not sure if that was what you were getting at?

LOL, I knew someone would ask that. I did actually stop tugging with her for 4-5 months a while ago & she was just as enthusiastic as ever, so I believe she would...and like I said, I'm not sure I am using tug as a reward or that she sees it as such. In fact I have run a couple of her family members who will not take any food or tug during agility, even though they are great tuggers outside of it for fun.

That's a tough one with your staffy, I hope the program you are doing works.

I don't think I'm really getting at anything, was just curious to hear people's perceptions of what their dogs rewards are. It's always great to share ideas around. Sometimes we learn things that hadn't occurred to us before.

Edited October 31, 2006 by Vickie

[haven]

It all depends on the dog. Certainly the act can be self rewarding, sometimes more so that the actual reward. My GSD likes doing agility more than anything else in the world and he won't take food treats or play with toys, so for him it is definately the act itself. Nova on the other hand loves everything, tug, ball, squeeky, food, agility, pats, verbal praise you name it she is a junkie for it. I find that what she desires most depends on the day and her mood and I try to reward her accordingly. Often the act itself doesn't start as self rewarding, but becomes rewarding for the dog because they come to understand that it is an opportunity to get a reward, obedience training is a great example of this.

[Pippi]

I think her reward is doing the course with me. I seem to remember a discussion a long time ago about this but can't remember the details.........

.....I know there are dogs who do the course (or another activity) for food or tug...I'm just not sure mine is one of them. I am not disputing that she finds tugging rewarding, just whether it is "the reward" & whether in fact it is possible for a dog to find the ultimate reward in the work rather than something external to the work......

...What do you consider your dogs ultimate reward is?.....

Hmmmm interesting question. Pippi also gets to tug with me after an agility run whether training or trialling. I see it as her reward and I'm pretty sure thats how she sees it too. It is her reward for a job well done or at least a good try. Playing tug with Pippi always happens when she does what I ask whether its agility or obedience or a trick etc. She knows thats her reward, she get to play with mum for a bit. You say you think her reward is doing the course with you. Her reward then for what? or are you saying that running an agility course for her is self rewarding? Much like herding the sheep is the ultimate reward. I guess it would be interesting to see how she performs after consistently not getting the tug at the end. This is probably something you would rather not test I guess I am lucky that Pippi will work for food or toys, actually I'll rephrase that, its not luck but something I have worked hard at. I think her ultimate reward is playing with me, tug or frisbee. But you have got me thinking Vickie.........

Edited October 31, 2006 by Pippi

[shoemonster]

Amhailte, a flirt pole might work better than a tug for your dog?

Basically a stick (like a bamboo rod or something) with a string and something like a piece of rabbit skin, or fake fur on the end

Flick it around so that the dog can't get to it

Edited to add this link http://www.ghostlyease.co.uk/Athletic%20Training.htm

Edited October 31, 2006 by shoemonster

[Vickie]

You say you think her reward is doing the course with you. Her reward then for what? or are you saying that running an agility course for her is self rewarding?

I think self rewarding is something different, that would indicate that she may do it by herself or do something according to her wishes rather than mine. I think the emphasis is more on the "with me"...but then again she will run just as enthusiatically for someone else, so maybe not?

But you have got me thinking Vickie.........

LOL, that was the idea...Sounds like you have your rewards with Pippi defined & working very well.

here's another idea to throw out there:

I think reward values change depending on the work ethic of the dog and/or their suitability for the activity.

Edited October 31, 2006 by Vickie

[shoemonster]

I think reward values change depending on the work ethic of the dog and/or their suitability for the activity

Yeah I definitely think so, thats why I think amh should try a flirt pole with her stafford

My boy works for different things depending on what he is doing, I am trying to figure out his best reward for agilty, something like tugging I think as a release as he gets so worked up so quickly, yet at obedience I can't use something that gets him too revved or he won't work at all

The flyballers almost all use tugs as their dogs reward too, I guess as both a release and a reward

Edited October 31, 2006 by shoemonster

[mjk05]

Fascinating topic.

One of my first agility dogs was like you describe with Trim- we tugged etc in the context of agility, but I don't think that was half as rewarding for her as the agility itself. She loved tugging, but would drop any toy (even mid-tug) at the prospect of more agility. I sometimes used food as a "reward" for her too, but it was almost a token- she would accept it, but with little interest, and would usually spit it out immediately and look for the next bit of "work" we were going to do. Tugging and accepting treats was more part of the routine of agility than an actual reward- the whole activity of doing agility was innately rewarding for her. She would also run enthusiastically for anyone else (even total strangers), and understood it was a "team game", but she really didn't need any other reward apart from getting to do it, and praise to let her know she'd got it right.

Some other activities she also found innately rewarding- eg flyball, but for others she did appear to value external rewards in the form of play or food. Generally she loved to "play the game"- eg free shaping tricks etc, and would participate with total enthusiasm even with very "low value" rewards, like lettuce

I always used to describe her as having a strong "work ethic", she wanted to work with me, and liked to get it right, regardless of what she got in return. But some dog people object to the term work ethic, and don't believe it exists in dogs. I don't know how else to describe it

Since then, I've had 2 dogs with lower "work ethic"- both of them enjoy agility, and seem happy to do it, but "need" their reward (usually toys, tugging). If the level of reward drops too much, so does their enthusiasm. Agility isn't innately rewarding, their enjoyment is conditional on the type of "payment" they get. I think they are great dogs, normal dogs.

My latest agility dog, a border collie, has the same "work ethic" as the first (if much less athletic talent), and is a joy to train. In addition, he's my favourite sheepdog for jobs around the farm, because even though he's sometimes less obedient, he will try his heart out in the most difficult of circumstances, because he was asked to do it.

I think reward values change depending on the work ethic of the dog and/or their suitability for the activity.

Do you mean that the "work ethic" of the dog, or how much reward they need, whether they need any- varies on the dog and what they are innately driven to do?

Eg my kelpie has a pretty poor "work ethic" for agility, needs lots of high value rewards to keep him keen- but he will work all day in the yards, until he's so tired he can hardly stand, for practically no external reward, just the occasional bit of praise. And if I tried to feed him or offered him his favourite agility tug toy, he'd totally ignore it. Praise is no reward at all in agility, really, he needs play and food, but its all he will accept for sheepwork, possibly because its a marker that he will get to keep working.

[J...]

Interesting question Vickie Its something I've thought about a bit with my young dog, who's really only just started her agility training.

It's interesting to see the difference between her motivation in a "basic skills" session when compared to a "course based" session. Basics she can be a bit distracted, start to add a few fun things like a tunnel or tyre and she'll fire up a bit, but put her in front of a course and she's very full on & very focussed.

I also use a tug toy, and she gets stuck into it after an obstacle or course section. She will tug beforehand but I can take it off her easily as well. Seems to me that they go hand in hand for her, both the equipment and the toy are rewarding, neither more rewarding than the other? She will tug without the agility, but not for long. Then again she doesn't tug for long at agility either - she's very good at conserving her energy. Do agility without the toy and she comes looking for it..... I think its the interaction/game which is the reward for Darcy and not necessarily the tugging??

[jesomil]

Very interesting. You got me thinking.

With my dog, his biggest reward inside is food. Outside he will totally ignore food and will do anything for his toy. He is completely toy mad.

But around stock, you can do all you want with the toy or food and he will not even blink from his concentration on the stock. I guess working sheep must be self rewarding because there is no way i could reward him with anything else other than releasing him to work sheep. He would work them till he dropped dead.

I wish i could bottle it and use it for other training

[Kelpie-i]

Hi Vicki......you pose a great question and discussion.

I think that Haven has hit the nail when she states that the reward values change depending on the work/ability to work.

Although let me pose this one to you......what starts out as an extremely self rewarding action in the beginning for the dog ie. running agility, may later on become more of a "job", which the dog still enjoys, but it may require some extra form of reward in order for the dog to continue the "work" effectively. What do you think?

BTW, my boy is both food and tug crazy and will do anything for both. However, when it comes to sheep, everything fades in comparison. His ultimate reward is to work the sheep. However, he doesn't see sheep every day so each time he sees them, he can't wait to get in. I wonder if this would be the case if he was made to work sheep each and every day??? Would he still find sheep rewarding or do they just become part of a normal day?

[J...]

Kelpie - The difference is that working dogs have been selected and bred for hundreds of years to work livestock. Its instinct for them. I've never seen any of our many dogs back out of a days work, now matter how much or how little work they've had. I have seen young dogs back out and head for home when I was jillarooing, but was always a result of rough handling and/or excessive pressure on a young dog.

You would hope you don't see that kind of thing in agility, but I've already seen one dog who was all but shut down.... would imagine if he could he would've gone home too

[mjk05]

what starts out as an extremely self rewarding action in the beginning for the dog ie. running agility, may later on become more of a "job", which the dog still enjoys, but it may require some extra form of reward in order for the dog to continue the "work" effectively.

I think it works the other way around, at least it has with my dogs. Most of them initially weren't that enthralled by jumps, weave poles, etc, but enjoyed the play and rewards associated with training. After a few months, and starting to sequence, the dogs start to get excited at their turn, and more focussed on the agility than the reward.

As far as stockwork goes, mine are still just as keen to work when they are doing lots of it on a daily basis, but they do seem to settle down, get more confident and calmer. They get a better grasp on their job, and that probably makes them calmer. Plus they get physically tired, which takes the "edge" off them, gives them more brains and less bounce. But they still don't need any external reward, and never turn down a chance to work.

[sidoney]

I recently read Susan Garrett's "Shaping Success" and she addresses tugging or not tugging, taking food or not taking food, but not in terms of motivating for agility, but for training. She describes the way her dog Buzz became so motivated by agility that he stopped taking rewards. The problem she saw with this is that you then are unable to distinguish between wanted and unwanted performance without an aversive. For example, dog doesn't stick a contact. If the dog is rewarded by doing agility and you ask it to do the obstacle again, it's being rewarded for coming off the contact. If tug or food rewards the dog, then that can distinguish to the dog which is the desired performance. Susan describes how she got Buzz tugging again by only allowing him to do more agility if he tugged, and that she would move further and further away from the training field until he would take the tug, and then go back to do more agility as the reward. Eventually he would take the tug whenever she presented it. She did the same with food but it was more difficult and took longer. Premack principle.

Premack is what is working for me with Xia and tugging in different environments. The more likely behaviour rewards the less likely behaviour. Xia loves tug at home but tended to not tug when out. However, Xia is likely to eat delicious food in most environments. I got her used to tugging for food at home, and now am able to take that out of home - this weekend we spectated at an agility trial and she was not keen to tug for tug, but did tug for food, not too shabbily. We've been continuing to work on that. At first she would take the tug and spit it out ASAP to get the food. Lately though, I notice that she is now tugging enthusiastically, growling and shaking the tug, and enjoying the tug before the food, not just doing it in order to get it over with and eat the food. In fact this morning she was starting to get slow to release the tug to get the food. Who knows, I may end up having to have her eat food to get the tug. <grin>

I want her to take tug or food rewards for agility for the training issues mentioned above.

I think it works the other way around, at least it has with my dogs. Most of them initially weren't that enthralled by jumps, weave poles, etc, but enjoyed the play and rewards associated with training. After a few months, and starting to sequence, the dogs start to get excited at their turn, and more focussed on the agility than the reward.

Again, Premack gives a possible explanation for this behaviour. "Transfer of value". Doing agility brings reward, becomes more valued in its own right, becomes self rewarding.

I read an interesting post on an email list a while back. Edit: pretty sure it was a post by Helix Fairweather, she of the "cyber-agility" training site and a regular poster on the early email clicker lists. She described that she trained her dogs to sit on low platforms while waiting for their turn to train agility. Sitting on the platform was rewarded by coming off it to train. The value transferred and sitting on the platform became more rewarding, with the dogs then doing the training in order to earn the reward of sitting on the platform. The highest value (training or sitting on the platform) flip flopped between the two.

Edited November 1, 2006 by sidoney

[Staranais]

Amhailte, a flirt pole might work better than a tug for your dog?

Basically a stick (like a bamboo rod or something) with a string and something like a piece of rabbit skin, or fake fur on the end

Flick it around so that the dog can't get to it

Thanks for the suggestion, Shoemonster.

He already has a mini spring poll, which he thinks is just OK. He really is a retrieving fiend, and the reason I'm trying to wean him onto a tugtoyis that it will be a lot more practical (don't want to throw toys around for a reward in the middle of a busy obedience class, since he's quite DA). If the tugtoy doesn't end up working for us, I might give the flirt pole a try. He's also crazy about balloons, of all things, but they're a bit impractical too (hard to hide at the end of a track, for example).

[sidoney]

Toys on sticks: I recently bought one of these. I had made previously make one with a lunge pole (too long) and a buggy whip (too breakable). Got all my dogs turned on pretty well.