Very Sick Puppy

[cinniespider]

I'm looking for any advice on how I can help my new puppy.

On October 15th my partner and I picked up our 8 week old Cavalier King Charles Spaniel puppy from a breeder. We got him home and fed him as directed ( raw chicken mince supplied by the breeder 3 time a day) and found by Saturday 21st he became ill.

Symptoms included at first lethargic, food refusal then on Sunday moved on to diarreah and vomiting aswell. We took him to the vet to which he thought it could be a stomach infection due to perhaps salmonela from the chicken mince. He was given many injections ( one for diarrah, one for vomiting, one for the pain, 2 of water under the skin) and we were sent home with antibiotic tablets twice a day and liquid medication for the diarreah. He continued to vomit that afternoon but stopped vommiting on the monday.

Still refusing to eat and still lethargic we took him back to the vet to which he was given 2 more injections ( vitamin suppliments I think) and a injection of water directly into the belly. We were also given precription food to force feed him with a seringe. Since Monday we have force fed him 3 times a day after offering him alternate food to eat ( vet suggested cooked chicken breast with some steamed rice) before the seringe feed. He's taken no interest in food at all. On Friday morning he ate 2 spoons of food but only off the floor and would not eat from a plate or bowl. We haven't been able to get him to eat again since. The vet says to continue with what we're doing and he should eat eventually. He also tested for parvo which was thankfully negative.

The forced feeds are helping with his energy levels and he now has good stools. So the only thing left is getting him to eat and it's been over a week now of only a single voluntary small eat. Which was some of the food we've been feeding him. We're out of antibiotics tonight and should be finishing the use of the diarreah liquid medication soon.

Tomorrow we plan to see another vet for a second opinion but would appreciate any ideas or help on getting our pup back to normal.

Carly

[rugerfly]

who in their right mind would instruct you to feed a puppy meat only????????? has any of your vets commented on this? A diet only of protein is only going to lead to problems. He aint getting any nutrients. What sort of a breeder is this??

I feel very sorry for you and your poor sick pup. Hopefully the vets can save him and give him the nutrition he needs.

Good luck

[Nekhbet]

You need some good quality diet for this pup.

Grab a bad of Royal Canin puppy food (see if you can grab a sample pack) that stuff always smells yummy. Soften it with some warm water and let the pup try it. He could be shy to eat around you if you have been force feeding him so just leave the room and completely ignore the dog every time food is around. Please this is important.

If that doesnt work, you could cook up some plain rice and chicken (cook the bones in the water but dont feed them to the puppy, flake the meat off for him) and make it into a warm soup. Add a tiny amount of salt and the bones release calcium and minerals, plus some fat and flavour so it shoudl smell pretty yum! Once again leave the bowl where the pup can find it and leave the room. Come back in half an hour to see if he;s at least drank up the soup.

Dont panic or fuss around him too much or you can make him shy around food. I know its worrying, I have had an anorexic dog once and i was in tears for days that she wouldnt eat. But stick to it, heaps or love and patience you will be right. The mince and illness could have really upset his stomache so I wouldnt be giving him anything very fatty or rich.

[cavNrott]

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Edited May 29, 2009 by cavNrott

[Jed]

I' d definitely be taking him to another vet.

If he is hardly eating, he is still sick, and needs more medication/attention to recover. The fact that he is uninterested in food indicates that all is not well.

I wouldn't be changing his food too much at the moment, as the change could cause more problems with a digestive system which is already in trouble. If he wont eat at all, you are better force feeding him what the vet recommended, but do get another vet opinion. Cooked chicken and rice might do for the short term, if he will eat it.

Pups do get salmonella, but it is not very common, and unless the vet has tested for this, I would be sceptical that salmonella is the cause of the problem, and perhaps further investigations need to be carried out. Once the cause is apparent, specific drugs for the cause can be given.

And yes, do contact his breeder.

who in their right mind would instruct you to feed a puppy meat only????????? has any of your vets commented on this? A diet only of protein is only going to lead to problems. He aint getting any nutrients. What sort of a breeder is this??

There are plenty of nutrients in meat - the only problem is that the calcium: phosphorus ratio in a meat only diet is not terribly well balanced.

However, in the short term the pup will not suffer from this diet. This is why the op should contact the breeder. To find out why chicken mince was the only food recommendation. Perhaps the pup would not eat anything else, which would indicate a problem before he was purchased.

Edited October 29, 2006 by Jed

[Staff'n'Toller]

Did the breeder give you a diet sheet? If the only instructions were chicken mince then I wouldn't be contacting them for advice.

You need to get the puppy onto a complete diet, as suggested Royal Canin, or Advance Puppy Rehydratable can also be soaked, Hills Puppy Small Bites would be fine.

If the pup is refusing to eat that then further investigation is needed i.e. blood tests.

Mel.

[ruthie]

Please call the breeder for advice, there may be issues with the rest of the litter. Good idea to see another vet asap.

I have two Cavs and know that new pups can be fussy eaters but Hills puppy biscuits moistened in a little water and a little chicken on top should work. My new Cav pup liked to have the food tipped out of the bowl and smeared on the mat (very messy but perhaps something she was used to with her littermates!)

Is he drinking much water?

Please let us know how you are going. Good luck.

[ruthie]

Please call the breeder for advice, there may be issues with the rest of the litter. Good idea to see another vet asap.

I have two Cavs and know that new pups can be fussy eaters but Hills puppy biscuits moistened in a little water and a little chicken on top should work. My new Cav pup liked to have the food tipped out of the bowl and smeared on the mat (very messy but perhaps something she was used to with her littermates!)

Is he drinking much water?

Please let us know how you are going. Good luck.

[ruthie]

Please call the breeder for advice, there may be issues with the rest of the litter. Good idea to see another vet asap.

I have two Cavs and know that new pups can be fussy eaters but Hills puppy biscuits moistened in a little water and a little chicken on top should work. My new Cav pup liked to have the food tipped out of the bowl and smeared on the mat (very messy but perhaps something she was used to with her littermates!)

Is he drinking much water?

Please let us know how you are going. Good luck.

[kazzakanary]

How is he going today cinniespider??

[cinniespider]

Hi everyone, Your responses are amazing, I think I'll have to print them all out and try the food ideas =)

A few things to report.

Pup still wont eat. We even tried mashed carrot and peas ( our cat likes peas so we figured it worth a shot???) last night but no luck. He seems to be sniffing about for food but nothing seems to tempt. He did however try to eat our compost yeaterday to which we got him well away from ( a little distracted when going wee;))

Re: food instructions from the breeder:

She gave us enough raw mince for a months supply ( most frozen and transported in a cool esky home) that she has specially made for her dogs. From memory I think all her dogs are fed this mix. She's actually a registered breeder on this website ( how I came to find her litter) She suggested to start him on the raw chicken then suggested moving to adding carrot and non nightshade foods mixed in and even some puppy dry food ( I think she called it the Hills brand but I find what we have doesnt soften well at all). She did suggesst we could cook the mince and introduce that later. We had planned to slowly move his diet to the dry but wanted the pup to settle into our house before changing his diet. He fell sick before we started to implement the change. ( 5 days with us)

So far the different food mixes we've tried to get him to eat include: cooked chicken breast and rice, normal wet puppy food ( he only tried eating this once but never tried again) different brand of dog food, carrot and peas, plain chicken no rice, rice, chicken and the given dry food cooked together.

I tried the suggestion of leaving food out and leaving the room. He remains good at waiting for me to return not moving from the door of his pen. I'll keep trying though. He's really fond of his water bowl atleast which helps. I'll definately try the soup too.

**edit** I'll have to be more mindful of our cat..he stuck his paw into pup's pen and pulled his food bowl over to the edge and ate his food whilst I wasn't there... sneaky boy!

I have thought to call the breeder. 2 things bop around in my head. 1 that she'll think I've neglected him or something along those lines - to which I wonder why I care so much of what she thinks? Perhaps cause I've taken him into my care and within days he falls ill. 2ndly I dont want to come across as making her feel like I think she's done something wrong cause I couldn't say where it went wrong or by who. She seems to care alot about her pups and I've done my best to keep him. I guess if she frequaently reads this forum she might find out before I call her but I do plan to give her a buzz soon.

The vet did not test for salmonella, it took the second visit to get him to test for parvo. At times it seemed the assistant nurse knew more about his needs than the vet. In any case, we went to that vet because it was a Sunday, we always planned to go to another vet which we've booked into. I'm hoping this new vet will investigate a little further. I ponder if a bit of bone in the mince ( it's the type that they mince bone and all in) might have done damage in there and might be obstrictive? I guess I've had a lot of time to use my imagination though. I'm wondering if an xray would help solve what is going on?

Seeming he only has eaten off our rug ( my partner gave it a try just as an idea) we've tried scattering food over it to see if he'll do what he did before. unfortunately he only sniffs and walks away or avoids the smell like the plague. I also worry about it being left out too long and making him sick again.

Again, just so impressed as to how great this forum has been. I'll definately let you know of the results from tomorrow. Thanks! Cooper has been a real trooper as he's still wagging his tail and engaging in light play again =) It amazes me that after all the feeding we do, he doesnt hold a grudge against us. We feel so bad about doing it but know it's the only thing keeping him going. I think I could ramble on for hours.

Carly

[cinniespider]

Just though I'd add a pic of Cooper =)

[Staff'n'Toller]

Maybe that mix the breeder gave just got too warm or something? I am very fussy with the raw meat I feed, also I'm sure that my pet supplies bring the meat in frozen so I don't mix it and refreeze - I feed it fresh or chuck it out.

If I don't like the smell or the colour - as in wouldn't eat it myself - I throw it.

I would try a different brand of puppy dry, perhaps your 'regular' vet that you will be visiting may have advance or royal canin. Some pups won't eat Hills, I know my guys won't touch advance which is quite strange, but it's just how it is.

If the Vet gives you the all clear, then try offering the food 3-4 times a day for 15 mins at a time, then picking up the bowl until next time. Pups are very good at training their owners so feed at the same place, in the same bowl, then pick it up, don't make a fuss about it. I can guarantee if he is healthy, he will eat after a few repetitions of losing his food when he wants to play games about it.

Also vegies are pretty boring to dogs, if anything I would try chicken necks and chicken frames raw, but I think you should start with a dry food first and get him eating to your routine.

Cheers,

Mel.

[bloss344]

She suggested to start him on the raw chicken then suggested moving to adding carrot and non nightshade foods mixed in and even some puppy dry food ( I think she called it the Hills brand but I find what we have doesnt soften well at all). She did suggesst we could cook the mince and introduce that later.

Puppies have high nutrient requirements due to their rapid growth and need more than chicken mince which is low in zinc, iron and copper and veggies. As Mel suggested a good quality dry puppy food would supply all his requirements he needs during this crutial time.

If chicken mince is ground chicken with bone, please don't cook it. Cooked bones even ground up ones become very brittle and sharp, often as you go through the mince you will find some quite largeish shards.

[cinniespider]

Quick update:

Cooper went to the vet this morning. He's still dehydrated and he's been admitted as an in patient for 24 hours. He new vet plans to run some blood tests ( my partner said it's for his vitamin and mineral levels) And they'll give him an injection that will encourage an appetite.

Poor bugger!

Re the cooked minc - I havent fed him it cooked and have thrown out all the mince we were supplied. We plan to get him onto a dry mix once he gets better ( there's no "if's" in that! )

So atleast he's being cared for properly Will update again on any news!

[cavNrott]

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Edited May 29, 2009 by cavNrott

[Steve]

Geez you guys are hard.

You dont know whats in the mince mix so maybe the breeder has added things to balance it. Its highly unlikely this was caused by salmonella and could be any number of things bacterial or parasites especially considering it was over a week after the pup came home. Dr Ian Billinghurst and several other canine nutrition people recommend puppies only eat chicken necks or wings for the first few days after they go home and its very common for BARF feeding breeders to recommend this.

Ive got more concern over the vet treatment and recommendations than what I have over the breeder and I hope that you ring the breeder and tell them whats going on.

In the mean time I would give 5 mils twice per day of Aloe juice as Ive seen this work miracles in very fast time with both puppies and kittens who are not eating and some pro biotics. [yakkault]

[bloss344]

I'm glad you've been back to the vet, hope your pup feels better soon. They can get sick so quickly but also bounce back so quickly with treatment.

[TessaBella]

Can't really help at all, just wanted to let you know how sorry I am that your little guy's sick. Sending well wishes and hugs your direction.

I am also getting a blenheim cav soon. So I feel very upset for your baby.

Hope all is well ASAP.

Cheers,

Tessa

[Jed]

cinniespider

She gave us enough raw mince for a months supply ( most frozen and transported in a cool esky home) that she has specially made for her dogs. From memory I think all her dogs are fed this mix. She's actually a registered breeder on this website ( how I came to find her litter) She suggested to start him on the raw chicken then suggested moving to adding carrot and non nightshade foods mixed in and even some puppy dry food ( I think she called it the Hills brand but I find what we have doesnt soften well at all). She did suggesst we could cook the mince and introduce that later. We had planned to slowly move his diet to the dry but wanted the pup to settle into our house before changing his diet. He fell sick before we started to implement the change. ( 5 days with us)

She has given you the mince so he doesn't have a change of diet - and recommended adding things once he is settled in his new home. Quite normal and responsible. People underestimate the stress involved in leaving the place where he was born and moving into a whole new environment. Puppies do better if at least the food is the same.

So far the different food mixes we've tried to get him to eat include: cooked chicken breast and rice, normal wet puppy food ( he only tried eating this once but never tried again) different brand of dog food, carrot and peas, plain chicken no rice, rice, chicken and the given dry food cooked together.

The fact that he wont eat anything means he is sick. Also if you continually change his diet, he is very likely to have diarrohea - tiny tummies have difficulty assimilating new foods.

I do understand how difficult it is with a new puppy, particularly one which wont eat.

I have thought to call the breeder. 2 things bop around in my head. 1 that she'll think I've neglected him or something along those lines - to which I wonder why I care so much of what she thinks? Perhaps cause I've taken him into my care and within days he falls ill. 2ndly I dont want to come across as making her feel like I think she's done something wrong cause I couldn't say where it went wrong or by who. She seems to care alot about her pups and I've done my best to keep him. I guess if she frequaently reads this forum she might find out before I call her but I do plan to give her a buzz soon.

I can't understand why people who have a problem wont call the breeder. A decent breeder will understand that pups do get sick, and certainly wont blame you - but she may be able to help you. And more importantly, the pup. Please do phone her.

The vet did not test for salmonella, it took the second visit to get him to test for parvo. At times it seemed the assistant nurse knew more about his needs than the vet. In any case, we went to that vet because it was a Sunday, we always planned to go to another vet which we've booked into. I'm hoping this new vet will investigate a little further. I ponder if a bit of bone in the mince ( it's the type that they mince bone and all in) might have done damage in there and might be obstrictive? I guess I've had a lot of time to use my imagination though. I'm wondering if an xray would help solve what is going on?

It is highly unlikely it is salmonella. If he had an obstruction, he would have been vomiting, and had diarrohea - and then he would have had no more diarrohea, had a temp, and been vomiting, probably bile. Some vets do fail to recognize obstructions, but the symptoms above are the usual ones. The dog will not eat, and generally will not drink after the first couple of days. However, I doubt that a pup with a full obstruction would still be alive now.

Seeming he only has eaten off our rug ( my partner gave it a try just as an idea) we've tried scattering food over it to see if he'll do what he did before. unfortunately he only sniffs and walks away or avoids the smell like the plague. I also worry about it being left out too long and making him sick again.

He WANTS to eat, but he is not eating because he is sick.

I hope your new vet does discover the cause of his problem, and he is returned to you, well and hearty.

He looks like a great little boy, by the way.