Naughty Puppy Problems

[bret]

HI everyone

i find that i get some awesome information here with the problems or suggestions i need for my puppy. I am at a real loss now.

after doing some training with puppy, trying to buid her drive for 3 weeks, things started to go a little bad.

previously my puppy used to be estatic to see me when ever i was around, especially in the morning. these days she doesn't have that same excitement. she is a 67 month old border collie, i know that she is quite intelligent, and i also know that i 'don't' know the dogs mind and how it thinks, but her naughtiness has almost trippled in the last 3 weeks. i take her out for a walk 2 times a day. i spend as much time as i can with her as well. I play fetch in the back yard with her and her sister, i try to make sure i am the only one who feeds her, i give her treats and do basic training. when i go for a walk and we get to the park, she wanders around which is fine, but doesn't listen to me all the time when i call her back. she sits when she wants to or doesn't drop during training.

last night thoguh was the last straw. I never hit puppy for corrections, usually just use a stern to angry voice but it doesn't phase her. last night we had a party, and once the initial excitement of all of all of the people there was over, she wouldn't stop scavenging. this also isn't new. when she is inside her first point of call is the bin. but last night she was licking the fat off the ground under the bbq, she didnt' even listen to me to stop or 'no'. i physically had to pull her away from it which she didn't like at all, yes i got the growl. i put her on her lead on a tree. She has this high pitched bark which i interpret as 'hey, i am here, you need to talk to me, be with me' she did that for a little while. once she stopped, i let her off and put her to bed.

i guess the questions i am asking are, i feel that i have lost the respect that i should have as the pack leader from my dog. Do you lose that respect by giving them too much praise? doing to many nice things for them? how do i get that respect back, so taht she really does want to be with me, and listen to me?

any of your advice will help me greatly.

Bret and maiya

[sas]

I think it's important to understand that Leadership & Respect are not the same.

Training does help a puppy become a more behaved & settled pooch, however there is another program called NILIF which means Nothing in Life is free.

Have you heard of this program before? http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=nilif.html

It does sound like your girl is getting rather cheeky on it.

You say you're training in drive, did a trainer teach you how to do this? You may be missing some steps: http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=tid.html

Here is another program that works well: http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=tot.html

Edited October 29, 2006 by sas

[bret]

I think it's important to understand that Leadership & Respect are not the same.

Training does help a puppy become a more behaved & settled pooch, however there is another program called NILIF which means Nothing in Life is free.

yes, i do know of this, and i do my best to stick by it. I think that maybe i might be giving too much praise, but i am not sure.

Have you heard of this program before? http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=nilif.html

It does sound like your girl is getting rather cheeky on it.

You say you're training in drive, did a trainer teach you how to do this? You may be missing some steps: http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=tid.html

yes, i have done training with steve at a seminar in gympie, he has been very helpful, just thought i would get some more information, too much info is never a bad thing.

Here is another program that works well: http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=tot.html

yes maiya is already quite well trained in TOT... she will not eat unless i say 'ok' but i think i might have to extend that to make sure that she knows i am pack leader.

with the praising.

she will come to me and sit. should i ignore her and make her do something more? so that she doesn't know that the praise will come every time? also, can a dog that loses respect for you, regain it by not ignoring her, but making her work more for her praise? i have tried to get everyone in the house not to praise her, but since doing this, it seems that this is what has made her less attentive too me. i am not sure, i am going to see a professional trainer recomended up her, but like i said, too much knowldegde is never enough

bret

[Nekhbet]

If you have everyone ignore her she's going to try and work for everyones attention. If you are a leader, food provider and trainer then you shouldnt deprive your dog of other human attention, she wont understand why. Both my dogs are allowed to be touched and played with by other people but as soon as I am around they run back to me.

Why are you trying to build prey drive? You have BC and they ooze it. You should be trying to use it to your advantage. At this age they go through hormonal changes. Yes they will 'talk back, ignore you, push your buttons big time! Back off with the training and just enjoy the pup. Can you tell me exactly how you are training your dog? You seem to be letting her get away with everything and now she's telling you to rack off. If she cant recall put her on a lead and keep her on it. No exceptions. You seem to need more consistancy in your training too, I dont think you understood TOT properly. Its not about teaching your dog a trick to sit before food its your dog understanding you control everything in its life as its pack leader.

Also why is your untrained pup allowed to go around a party? Why do you let her scavange? Your dog creates self rewarding behaviours and then you spring her and she cracks it. All you teach her is not to get caught, not to stop the behaviour. Your dog, if she gets excited, should be in a pen or crate away from guests and visitors until she is trained. If you cant control her behaviour its safer to give her quiet space of her own.

PM me if you need help with her more.

[Tonymc]

Nekhbet, excellent answer. Tonymc

[bret]

Why are you trying to build prey drive? You have BC and they ooze it. You should be trying to use it to your advantage.

Maiya's threshold for prey drive is quite high. i will take the orbi ball with me to the park, if i am running she will persue me and then go the orbi ball. If i am there holding it, waving it around and such, she just looks at it as if to say 'yeah, so your playing with a ball, what do you want me to do about it?' it is quite funny sometimes, where as her sister, if you even look like holding a ball, she is already trying to jump up and grab it. I would love to use the prey drive to my advantage but at this stage i am not getting some of the success i would like. i attribute that mostly to me being a new trainer though, hence the continued quest for knowledge.

Can you tell me exactly how you are training your dog?

hmm, most likely incorrectly at the park, build up her want for a toy, give her a command, when she responds to the command, she gets the ball. most times though the ball doesn't interest her. I also take treats, and use what i have been told recently is 'food exchange', which works, only if hte puppy is hungry

You seem to be letting her get away with everything and now she's telling you to rack off.

Saying no doesn't seem to work all the time, and i don't want to smack her ??? at a loss. she is told 'no' when we don't want her to do something, is this not enough? given the tone and such?

If she cant recall put her on a lead and keep her on it. No exceptions.

i keep her on the lead when we walk on the street, so you are saying that if we go for a couple of laps of the oval so to speak, she must stay on the lead? what about when we go to the beach and in the water, or should i lay off that for a little while, until i get her back on track?

You seem to need more consistancy in your training too, I dont think you understood TOT properly. Its not about teaching your dog a trick to sit before food its your dog understanding you control everything in its life as its pack leader.

hmm. i do understand that it is about her understanding i am the one who allows her to eat when i say, and that i control that sort of thing. I am at 2 minutes now with her in a down position, her sister is eating and her focus is entirely on me, awaiting the release. is that not correct?

Also why is your untrained pup allowed to go around a party? Why do you let her scavange?

this is something i don't understand, the scavenging thing. she has been corrected when going into the bin in the kitchen, but she still does it. i didn't want to tie them up during the party, i am only assuming this but if i put them both on a lead, with people over that they would have gone nuts and barked all night. should i have tied them up in an out of the way place?

Thank you so much for your response. I am here to learn, and need to know answers. Sugar coating is not the way i think, so thank you for telling me outright that i am doing something wrong.

I await your responses to the above answers i gave you.

many thanks again

Bret

[Dogsfevr]

Well i think the first thing you need to realize is she isnt trained to eat on command,scavenging for food means she happily will eat without that "OK"

I agree if the dog wont recall then its onlead,dogs that dont come when called learn nothing but also are a menace to other dogs whether she be friendly or not,your responsability for having a dog offlead is control.

I say go back to basics & maybe focus on the simple stuff,often many people go over the top for training the dog losses the plot.

Simple commands,not reading more into it that is required works so well.If she isnt responding then you need to ask why.Maybe training has become boring,repeatative,she is lacking the instructions from you or she is allowed to do somethings & then gets confused

[PAX]

You need a crate and to PM Nekhbet.