kamuzz Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 Cordelia was explaining to me how I am causing problems for myself by letting my dog Robbie decide what he wants to do on a walk, instead of telling him. As she put it - the dog world is not a democracy. It was a really good conversation but as I was at work, I couldn't pick her brains as much as I would have liked. So how does this work in practise. For example, when I walk Coda he loves to smell things. Since we are on the walk for his benefit rather than mine, I always let him stop and smell whatever it is and then walk on when he's ready. Surely a walk won't be much fun if he can't do some of his stuff too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 If you know he wants to do something, ask him to do something for you first. Say, a sit, then release him to go sniff. It's called the "nothing in life is free" programme - NILIF. He wants something from you, he does something for you. Easy really. He gets to do his stuff but when you say he can. This means you are the leader. Also check the triangle of temptation thread, pinned on the top of this forum. ToT and NILIF are likely all you need to be his leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 I'll preface this with a disclaimer that I'm a fairly new dog owner who is on a very steep learning curve. I've been told, and we enforce this, that the pack leader goes through narrow openings first and also sits in the highest place. For us, this means that our girl is asked to sit/stay before she enters or leaves the house - we gets lots of practise as we go through the house to go for our morning/afternoon walk. It also means that when she comes into the house, she must wait to be invited. If she barges in, she gets put straight back outside. Inside the house, she mustn't run or wander - she has a crate or mat which she must stay on. Again if she wanders, she gets put straight outside. We do not allow her on the furniture - partly it is a personal preference of I don't like dogs on the furniture and partly I see it as her challenging for position in the pack. When we first brought her home, it's all that she wanted to do - she tried to jump on the lounge, dining table and kitchen bench Now she happily sits on her mat on the floor - I think partly because she knows she doesn't have a choice, but partly because she recognises it as her position in our pack. The other thing that we enforced for about the first two weeks was that pack leaders eat first. I made her very aware that we ate before her. I admit that I have let this one slip a little bit as she doesn't seem that food orientated, but I wouldn't hesitate to go back to it if I felt that she was starting to challenge me as pack leader. Having said that we don't always eat before her, I do insist that she wait to be told that she can eat. I will ask her to sit/stay whilst I put her food down. Then she has to "earn" her dinner. This is usually something simple like shaking paws or more challenging like drop/down. Once she has, I "release" her and leave her to eat in peace. The other thing that I insist on is that she absolutely must move out of my way. I refuse to walk around her - pack leaders don't. I have taught her that the command "move" means just that. Although now she will usually move if she's on her feet - the only time I need to use it is if she's lying outside the back door. And she quite happily complies, because I make sure I usually praise her when she does. As for the walk being more for her than you, I tend to have a different view. I view it as for "us" and I time to work on our obedience. The neighbourhood probably think that I'm insane, but I don't care. I practise recalls (come) by calling her and running backwards and then getting her to sit in front of me. Some days I will get her to heel at different paces. Other days I will get her to heel and then do lots of sits in quick succession - like "heel (two steps), sit, heel (one step), sit". Some days I'm lazy and just take her for a walk. I find on the days that I do a lot of obedience with her, she actually comes back more tired than if we walk further - I think the mental stimulation is good for her and probably the concentration required tires her out - she isn't a naturally obedient dog. The other suggestion that I have, which I've only just started with our girl (it's taken quite a while to get her to walk nicely) that you teach her a "release" command. Most of the walk, I now insist that she walks at heel (probably 90%). If she's walking nicely and paying attention to me, I will "release" her for a sniff - for us, this is just simply saying the word "release" and keeping walking. This means that she is free to sniff the grass, but doesn't have to walk at a precise heel. It does mean that she needs to keep up with me, I refuse to be dragged - but she can roam the length of the lead. It also means that she must return to heel when I ask her to. As I said, I've only just started with this, but I'm still experimenting. What we have found that by following the above, she has gone from a very "wild" dog when we first got her - running through the house, jumping on us, extreme mouthing (this was really, really bad), to a much calmer and seemingly happier dog. She seems to be happy and calm as we believe that she knows that she can relax because she know knows her place in the pack and she doesn't have to worry about trying to be/become the leader. I'm sorry that this is soooo long, but it seems to be something that I'm becoming passionate about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 (edited) . Edited May 29, 2009 by cavNrott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 (edited) As for sniffing on walks, it's up to you and what you want out of your dog. I give my kids a release command if they're on lead to sniff and wee etc, they don't need to sniff at everything. Once we get to the park they're off lead but always come back to check in with us. If you really want to get leadership from a dog you need to follow NILIF with 100% consistency and then step it up when they've got the basics down pat and they start to offer the behviour you want all of the time (i.e. sitting for pats etc, step it up to a drop for pats etc). We certainly don't run an army type of situation here, dogs are allowed on furniture and so forth and get plenty of attention but it's on our terms not theirs. Edited October 28, 2006 by sas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trisven13 Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 I think it depends on the dog - I know with Bart that if I give an inch he will take a mile and reading all the things Squeak does, made me realise how slack I've got with him lately. We don't let him sleep on the lounge because he is a dominant personality - when he was a pup he would growl occasionally when you touched him on the lounge so we stopped letting him on. He calmed down a lot and so when he was about 12 months old we would "invite" him on when it suited us - he growled at OH one night, was sent outside for half an hour as a punishment and hasn't been allowed on again. We are incredibly consistent with it - he is not allowed paws up for a pat - all four feet on the ground at all times. What I haven't done though is keep up the training with him so did five minutes with him tonight and will get back to it again as a nightly ritual. He is food aggresive with other dogs so is fed separately - he must sit and look at us and wait for the release signal before can eat, he must sit before he leaves the room where he eats, he must sit before he gets his lead on, before he walks out the door etc. I honestly believe that if I didn't do all those things with Bart he would be a very difficult dog to live with. He is a very nice dog when he knows his boundaries but he will push them if given the opportunity. My dogs don't heel, terrible I know but as I've always owned multiple dogs I've never figured out how to get them to heel at the same time. Bart must sit and wait until I walk out the gate before he can and he has to sit at the edge of the road etc as do my other dogs, but they all walk out in front. After about 15 minutes Bart is getting tired so he walks next to me or behind me then. Despite the fact that they don't heel I don't let them stop and sniff as I was also told that the dog must learn to go where I want to go, when I want to go. I just keep on walking and they quickly figure out they need to be with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 (edited) I agree that a lot depends on the dog. I might sound strict, but please remember that we got our dog from the RSPCA when she was 12 mths old and was totally untrained - she didn't even know what "sit" was!. She was truly a handful when we first got her - jumping up on us, and I mean constantly and mouthing us, very hard, much of the time. Since she is a large dog (deerhound X) we really needed to get control of her - and what I have outlined has worked for us. I don't treat her as a robot, I just feel like I set very clear and consistent boundaries, and she really seems to have responded to this. As I said, it is a personal preference that she's not allowed on the furniture - I don't have a problem with other people having a dog on the couch, it's just not something that I choose to do. If I did, it would be by invitation only, but then again, it is a personal choice. Since we've only had her for four months, I may "ease up" in the future, but I really felt that in order to get control, I needed to do what we have done - it's worked for us so far, and just thought that I would share with someone who has asked. We also have fun with her and I truly believe that she is a more relaxed and happier dog because she knows who is boss/leader. I don't see putting her outside as punishment - she is sent/put outside with the command "out" and always praised when she does go out. I see her being inside as a privilege for her - if she doesn't behave, then that privilege is removed for a short period of time. Edited October 28, 2006 by squeak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangerineDream Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 Agree that it depends on the dog - and the things that you do and the way that you handle it is an individual thing... out of 3 Dobermanns and 2 GSP's....2 of my Dobes would ask first before doing something if corrected just once (Kai never did anything without raising an eyebrow to ask permission), Cadence (previous GSP) gave up challenging me when we had a discussion the day he turned his back on me when I called him and went and climbed into the pond.......after 20 minutes having to stand on his hind legs being stared down by me, he gave up and always did what was asked of him from that day til the day he died. Tegan (Dobe) was a challenge till she jumped out of the car at obedience one night, flew across the carpark and stood bristling at one of her daughters...she got frog marched back to the car muttering under her breath all the way and had 30 minutes of solid and very fast heel work... she never argued again... Tango (maybe I should call him Sinatra).....his middle name is "I'll do it my way" ....is the most challenging (and dominant) of them all....everything is a battle that I have to win, even down to the 'if you want to get in the car you have to have a piddle first' 40 minute standoff (I won ), so with him it's I go through doors first, I regularly tell him to get off the furniture or out of the car (and make him do it), take his toys away and give them back, and on walks, he runs on a 10' lunge line, but I intersperse obedience through it - sometimes he sniffs and piddles, then I will call him to me, he'll wander off again, I'll call him to heel and do 3 minutes obedience, he'll wander off again (the release word I use is 'ok'), I'll get him to sit at a distance......that sort of thing - so with him, there's obedience sprinkled through everything he does. What sort of character does your dog have? How often are you challenged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 ** bump ** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamuzz Posted October 29, 2006 Author Share Posted October 29, 2006 What sort of character does your dog have? How often are you challenged? Well Coda my GSD is really laid back (apart from his playing at 4:00am and that is a whole other story). Like cavNrott I want to have fun with my dogs, not turn them into robots. He spends most of his time in the backyard so if he wants to smell every post we walk past when he does get out, is that such a drama? Robbie has a different situation altogether, and I think from now on I won't be walking them together. It means less walks for Robbie, but he is probably better off being walked one on one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 (edited) I have a 'c'mon' command which means stop sniffing and catch up, have taught it to all my dogs and it works brilliantly. Through being taught that, they also learn that they have as long as it takes me to walk past the tree/pole/fence then we keep walking. So once learned I hardly have to use the command, I often let the dogs sniff for longer, but when I start moving forward it's time to go. It's the most irritating thing to have a dog pull you over to a tree or refuse to budge from one when you want to keep walking. I certainly do use obedience throughout the walks, and vary it with them heeling sometimes, other times they are released (still on lead). I definitely do lots of recalls on off lead runs for no reason at all other than to build compliance, and teach them to keep an ear out. I also get them to do sits and drops from a distance - very handy. I use NILIF, I don't do the door thing, I do teach them the cue words on and off for the bed, and in and out for the car and the gate. NILIF means make them work for the things they see as rewarding, so getting in the car, walking out the front door, sitting in the car at the park before getting out are all life rewards. Mel. Edited October 29, 2006 by Staff'n'Toller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmo_em ♀ Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 (edited) Gosh so many people have told me not to let elmo sleep on the bed. I used to let him all the time. Recently though (more due to decreasing available space!!) I have made him sleep in his bed next to the bed and he is behaving much better. Weird. Don't know if it has anything to do with maybe being put in his place?? edited to add that he never gets up on the bed without asking. He has to sit and wait until Im in then hes allowed up. If he jumps up before hes asked hes not allowed on. Edited October 31, 2006 by Elmo_n_Em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOE Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Read the book Ceasrs way available at kmart dogs nose eyes ears Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 K: So how does this work in practise. For example, when I walk Coda he loves to smell things. Since we are on the walk for his benefit rather than mine, I always let him stop and smell whatever it is and then walk on when he's ready. Surely a walk won't be much fun if he can't do some of his stuff too? K9: there has to be a "deal" made with the dog, the extreme of letting the dog have zero freedom would be a competition level heel for he entire walk. The point of walking the dog is to allow the dog to recieve sight, scent & sound stimlation plus excercise. I teach dogs a command that allows them to sniff on walks & walk on what ever side they like, in fron or behind, bu there is no leash pulling & n me waitin until they have decided to move on, those decisions are mine. Dominance being elevated by who eats first, who walks through doorways first is an old wives tail... (no offence to wives lol) T: I think it depends on the dog - I know with Bart that if I give an inch he will take a mile K9: when I read the next quote, I think he alread has... T: He is food aggresive with other dogs so is fed separately - he must sit and look at us and wait for the release signal before can eat, he must sit before he leaves the room where he eats, he must sit before he gets his lead on, before he walks out the door etc. I honestly believe that if I didn't do all those things with Bart he would be a very difficult dog to live with. K9: He is taking so much work to keep him in a pack position there is someting else wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Dominance being elevated by who eats first, who walks through doorways first is an old wives tail... I wonder why this sentence than in TOT? Prepare the meal inside & this should be done after all higher members have eaten. I understand that the TOT is a generic program but if the eating first or last isnt important why was eating last mentioned in TOT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 K9 wrote: Dominance being elevated by who eats first, who walks through doorways first is an old wives tail...M: I wonder why this sentence than in TOT? K9: It doesnt say that in the program, perhaps you should read it again. From TOT program: Prepare the meal inside & this should be done after all higher members have eaten. M: I understand that the TOT is a generic program but if the eating first or last isnt important why was eating last mentioned in TOT? K9: I didnt say it wasnt important, I said it was a wives tail that dominance will be elevated by it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 K9: It doesnt say that in the program, perhaps you should read it again. the second sentence is in TOT not the first.... K9: I didnt say it wasnt important, I said it was a wives tail that dominance will be elevated by it.. so will the dog eating last decrease the dominance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityBites Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 K9: I didnt say it wasnt important, I said it was a wives tail that dominance will be elevated by it.. Sorry giggling my head off at wives TAIL...................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 M: the second sentence is in TOT not the first.... K9: here is the first paragraph of the TOT program.. The second sentence is bold... This is a behaviour, pack structure & obedience program that takes nearly no time from your day. I created this program after many years of working with dogs. K9: Im sure your talking about this sentence Prepare the meal inside & this should be done after all higher members have eaten. M: so will the dog eating last decrease the dominance? K9: No. That, as I said, in my opinion, is an old wives tail... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 K9: Im sure your talking about this sentence Prepare the meal inside & this should be done after all higher members have eaten. yes I am, so what is the reason for the TOT to mention that the dog should eat after, if its of no significance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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