How Do You Define Instinct

[Kelpie-i]

Superminty, couldyou give me the name of number of the other person you go and see as I would be interested in taking my boy there to see what he'd be like on different sheep.

[Kavik]

Yay for Pickle! Now there will be 3 dogs in the car

[sidoney]

It will be mayhem in the back there!!!

[Vickie]

I just wanted to comment on the discussion about suitability of sheep at training centres.

I think it is worth saying that there are a number of urban people with working bred dogs in Sydney (and I'm sure other cities) who have no other access to sheep other than "training sheep". Many of these have trained their dogs from scratch to trialling (3 sheep/yard) level successfully and I see no reason why this won't continue in the future.

My non-expert opinion is that beginner dogs and more importantly beginner handlers generally need quiet sheep to start on. It is not practical to think that every well bred dog with a non experienced handler could be let loose in a paddock with flighty sheep to learn. I think in most cases that would be chaos.

I think whether it works is often going to depend on the the hardwiring of the dog and the ability of the handler to deal with that dog's natural strengths & weaknesses. Some dogs will have problems with training sheep who will see a weakness in the dog & try to take them on, another dog with those same sheep will have no problem. Same with natural distance, or ability to get to the head etc.

I think the components that make up each dogs style are too complex to make definitive statements about "all beginner dogs" reacting to "all training sheep". (The exception I make to this is dogs who have no real instinct, talent or style and I strongly object to people who spend months/years letting their dog chase the sheep around when there is no obvious sign of any progress at all.)

I think the problem is more apparent when people get to a more advanced or trialling level where the sheep are consistently different in trials to those at training. Even then, if the dog is reading the sheep correctly will adjust the way they work based on the sheep.

Trim has spent most of her time working on "dogged sheep" and I am the first to admit that she works too close. She has to, to move them, even though she has quite a bit of presence. But the few times she has been on "real" sheep, she has worked much further off, at an appropriate distance. I think her ability to read the sheep is part of her instinct/hardwiring and it is a definite strength in her. Other dogs may not have this strength, but may have another in an area she is weak in.

Not sure if any of this makes sense and I'm no expert anyway...it's just what I think.

I guess my point is...I don't want new people to herding to automatically think that they should never go to a training centre because it will ruin their dog. LOL, the reality is, with us as inexperienced handlers, our dogs are never going to reach the potential they would anyway. It sounds negative but I think it's realistic. I like working my dog & I am trying to learn as much as I can. My next dog will be better because I will be better. I had huge ambitions of 3 sheep trialling when I started. I may do it one day with Trim, I may not. I certainly believe it's possible, but it probably requires more dedication/time than I currently have to do it successfully.

In the meantime, with my current ambitions, I am quite happy to work my dog at a training centre and learn as much as I can.

Edited October 19, 2006 by Vickie

[sidoney]

It is not practical to think that every well bred dog with a non experienced handler could be let loose in a paddock with flighty sheep to learn. I think in most cases that would be chaos.

I agree with that statement. However, I also think that a dog does need to learn how to handle sheep that will run, unless it is going to work dogged sheep all its life. This may be OK if the only sheep the dog sees are the dogged ones, but put that dog in a trial, and if it's never learned to handle sheep that run, then how will it know how to control those sheep? It would be an exceptional dog (and handler) that could manage sheep under those circumstances.

IMO how you started Trim was better than dogs that work only at urban centres get, since you had the opportunity and took the time to go and work one on one with a good trainer with good sheep, as well as working the dogged sheep. Good for both of you.

My main point I think is that working sheep is resource-heavy. You need sheep, the land to keep them on, and the time to maintain them. You also need to be able to learn from people that know how to do it. Hence my argument that it may be difficult or unrealistic to expect that suburban sheepdogs WOULD have an opportunity to learn to work sheep as well as those that live in environments that DO have those resources. And unrealistic of handlers to expect their dogs to go into a trial and work undogged sheep if their dogs have never worked them before.

[Vickie]

see that's my point...how do you determine which strengths and weaknesses have been influenced by the sheep or the trainer & which are natural in the dog. Even if they are natural attributes...has a single incident affected them?

What I am trying to say is that I think it's different for each dog depending what their natural attributes are and what their reactions are, or not, to their experiences.

Some examples:

The first time I took Trim to Erskine Park, she was charged by a sheep in a yard. Did that impact her? She bit that sheep on the nose & has never been challenged since. So that has changed the way she is as a dog? or has it? Incidentally her sister was knocked to the ground by a ram around the same time. This was on a property with "real" sheep. Her response was the same as Trim's and to my knowledge she has not been challenged since. Did that make them stronger? Did it not change them? If they had not responded & won the battle would it have made them weaker?

A couple of weeks ago, Shine (16 weeks) slipped her collar & joined Trim & I in the paddock. She had shown moderate interest in the few sheep she had seen from the other side of the fence to that date & I believe was coming to me, not the sheep. Once she came in & the sheep responded to her, she went around them, balanced a bit & fetched & was calm enough that I could kind of stop her and catch her. I think I was lucky that I had a friend there who warned me not to panic as she got behind the sheep. It ended up a really great (although unplanned) experience for her. To me that is instinct at its best & I am really excited about what I saw from her in those few minutes. But...it could have ended up a bad experience. She could have chased them all over the paddock, she could have been hurt, they could have not responded to her. Again, how would I judge which of these things, had they happened, would have changed her?

IMO how you started Trim was better than dogs that work only at urban centres get, since you had the opportunity and took the time to go and work one on one with a good trainer with good sheep, as well as working the dogged sheep. Good for both of you.

I'm not sure how much the actual sheep we started on have impacted Trim's ability. I am sure that the method she was started in had a big impact & was right for her. She has a lot of instinct, so letting her work it out without overcommanding her was the right thing for her. I think if she had been started by someone who overcommanded in the beginning she could be a very different dog. I like that she was allowed to go into a paddock almost immediately, rather than be stuck in a yard for months and I think this was good for her.

It is not practical to think that every well bred dog with a non experienced handler could be let loose in a paddock with flighty sheep to learn. I think in most cases that would be chaos.

I agree with that statement. However, I also think that a dog does need to learn how to handle sheep that will run, unless it is going to work dogged sheep all its life. This may be OK if the only sheep the dog sees are the dogged ones, but put that dog in a trial, and if it's never learned to handle sheep that run, then how will it know how to control those sheep? It would be an exceptional dog (and handler) that could manage sheep under those circumstances.

Honestly I don't think it should be that exceptional. Part of being a talented sheepdog is the ability to read the sheep and knowing when to apply & release pressure. This will differ in every situation, depending on the type/number/experience of the sheep, the area they are in and any draw they have in that area. A dog working protective ewes & lambs obviously needs to work very differently to how they normally would & their instinct/ability to read the sheep tells them to do this.

My main point I think is that working sheep is resource-heavy. You need sheep, the land to keep them on, and the time to maintain them. You also need to be able to learn from people that know how to do it. Hence my argument that it may be difficult or unrealistic to expect that suburban sheepdogs WOULD have an opportunity to learn to work sheep as well as those that live in environments that DO have those resources. And unrealistic of handlers to expect their dogs to go into a trial and work undogged sheep if their dogs have never worked them before.

I agree that the best work for a dog is real work with real sheep, but like I said before, there are people in Sydney who only have access to dogged sheep & every now & then they actually beat the country folk in 3 sheep trials. It can & does happen, even if they have to work their butts off to do it.

Edited October 20, 2006 by Vickie

[herding_guy]

Vicki....very well said...totally agree.

I also would like to add that the sheep also change depending on the situation and dog. Trained sheep react differently to different dogs and whether they are in the yards or open paddock also if there are 3 or 5 sheep.

Distance increases between dog / sheep / handler according to the space they have and how many sheep there are. This also depends on the breed of sheep as well.

My dog Scout never worked really wild sheep until he was 2yo. We were given a job to gather and yard 200 merino ewes that had never seen a dog or human up close before. He went in hard at first but sorted himself out very very quickly. I had to drive sheep and adjust my normal handling techniques as well.

I suppose another instinct (or is it a learned behaviour???) is being able to read the sheep for both handler and dog.

Being able to adjust (dog and handler) and control ones dog to suit the flightiness or fight in the sheep is what training and trialling is all about and this can only be done through working trained sheep.

[Vickie]

I also would like to add that the sheep also change depending on the situation and dog. Trained sheep react differently to different dogs and whether they are in the yards or open paddock also if there are 3 or 5 sheep.

Distance increases between dog / sheep / handler according to the space they have and how many sheep there are. This also depends on the breed of sheep as well.

This is a really good point. I saw a perfect example of it last week. Trim & I took 3 "dogged" sheep out of a small yard, though a gate into another yard, then through a gate into a Novice size arena, through some yards to an Open size arena & through another gate to a huge paddock. It was very interesting to see the changes in her and the sheep as we moved from one area to another (and of course as they got closer to their friends in the paddock). With each increase in the size of the area, she worked further off. It wasn't until we pushed them through the last gate that she had a moment of panic and decided that they were getting away. She went right out wide & cut them off before they joined the mob & brought them back to me, LOL. As the sheep got closer to freedom, they got lighter & she responded beautifully (well right up to the end, ).

[stumped]

lnstinct and learned behavior can look the same, but when you know how you got there it is easy to tell the difference. The first time you put a pup down with stock and you watch for its approach to its work it is instinct , there is no association to call upon, so it must be instinct . You may not see this again for a lot of folks cant resist interfering and trying to adjust behaviors they dont like, so even the second time out a pup has some learned response or avoidance triggers. However its basic instincts are the same and if guided so as to make use of the tools it has can be bought to its full potential quickly and without to much confrontation . When an 8 wk old pup reads sheep it is instinct , when it takes you 3 yrs to get a dog to steady on runny sheep and push hard on doey cattle it is a learned response. They dont all have the same set of instincts, and a dog that has the ability to read and control flighty stock will be able to do it even if he has been trained on dogged sheep, it will be a little surprised when it first sees them but you will see it quickly adjust , because it has the instinct to call upon, one without this instict will be left behind and appear flat footed because he would never have been "taught" how to react and does not have the "natural" instinct.

l have taken dogs that were worked as driving dogs on dull stock for several yrs and put them on racey young goats, and given their head quickly take control, they have actually been stopped from doing this their whole life, so must have had the "instinct" and had a good dose of it.

Working dogs are great.

[dasha]

I would like to make a point that I think that dogged sheep are not as much benefit to some as you would like to think.

I will use one of my experiences.

I entered a 3 sheep trial and figured I would practice some casts, not to lift then to bring them but just cast even and head and fine tune some distance commands. I wanted my dog to get used to the louder commands that are needed for distance work. Anyway, I lef tmy dog outside the yard and pushed (practically with my hands) my "trained sheep" to the far end of the paddock and let them settle. I then went and got my dog, entered the paddock with my dog behind me, I stopped her and stepped aside ready to do my cast only to look up and find 4 really well trained sheep lift their heads and run towards me (in a nice straight lift) and gather in front of me and my dog (who was still waiting for me to send her!!!)

I am hoping someone can tell me where I should be looking to see the benefit of these sheep for my dog. The only 1 I can think of is that we practised her distracted stop and resisted the urge to finish the lift off.

I do think that some quiet dog accustomed sheep to have a place but Dogged sheep don't. When the sheep have been used for 2 years, they are of minimum benefit to anyone.

[Vickie]

I hope you don't mind tmc but I remember reading an article of yours a while ago & just went to find it. It's a great read & much of it is very appropriate to this thread I think...I think others will enjoy it.

http://www.workingaussiesource.com/stockdo...ow2_article.htm

One thing I would like to ask you....

Since many of us here do other things with our dogs and start training for these things at a young age, how much impact do you think this can have on their first exposure with sheep? None? Depends what we're doing? Depends on the dog & its level of instinct?

[jesomil]

Thats a great article tmc

I particularly like what you do with the pup to start with. Its great how you say when you put that little pup on the sheep for the first time, you can learn so much about its raw instinct. There are no commands or experiences to change that raw instinct.

I think sometimes we can get caught up in giving too many commands, especially to start with.

I have video of the very first time my 7wk old saw stock and i can learn alot about him from that, just like what you were saying.

[sidoney]

My frustration ATM is that my dog and I are restricted to a small yard where you can't get away from the sheep, even if you try.

I've been told by a few people that I respect that my dog needs to develop her instinct and ability to read the sheep before having command put on her.

I can't see how to do that.

Hopefully things will be better at Bungendore.

I'm probably going to only be able to dabble, and I'll probably only do it occasionally, otherwise I'll be wanting something I can't have.

[Vickie]

I just realised that was Part 2. LOL, I never read Part 1 until today, it is equally as insightful:

http://www.workingaussiesource.com/stockdo...ow1_article.htm

[Mooper]

My frustration ATM is that my dog and I are restricted to a small yard where you can't get away from the sheep, even if you try.

The yards at the Bungendore showgrounds would probably be 3 to 4 times the size of the one I saw you and Xia in at Paul Darmody's place yonks ago with Bernard. And quite a few dogs had a go further out in the paddock last time -- there are pics on the BADSA website, http://www.badsa.org.au

[sidoney]

Goody, I'm starting to look forward to it. I've joined BADSA BTW.

[stumped]

Vickie, had forgotten about those articles, gettin' old

they were written for straightforward stockman but the principles are applicable to any work l reckon.

As for doing other things with pups when young, it will have little effect on their "instinct", if you have worked on control at a young age it may take a while for them to feel they can leave you, but if the instinct is there it is there.

You just have to make sure you give them time and "let" them show it, many try to influence a pups actions from minute one, and probably dont know they are doing it, even your body language can interfere with the pup, just "let" it happen. And whatever happens then is a true indication of that pups level of work instinct and his method of work

Tony

I hope you don't mind tmc but I remember reading an article of yours a while ago & just went to find it. It's a great read & much of it is very appropriate to this thread I think...I think others will enjoy it.

http://www.workingaussiesource.com/stockdo...ow2_article.htm

One thing I would like to ask you....

Since many of us here do other things with our dogs and start training for these things at a young age, how much impact do you think this can have on their first exposure with sheep? None? Depends what we're doing? Depends on the dog & its level of instinct?

[Vickie]

Thank you, that makes a lot of sense. I guess herding is so much about having patience & knowing when to wait things out, what better place to start practising that patience than right at the very beginning?

I was watching a really nice pup start a few weeks ago with a beginner handler. It was just as you describe, she seemed unwilling to wait & let the pup work stuff out & every time she moved "to get things moving" she confused things. When she didn't interfere, he had no trouble, he was just a very calm pup & kept his sheep very settled, right from the beginning.

Edited October 23, 2006 by Vickie