How Do You Define Instinct

[Denis Carthy]

Labluv

Denis, I cannot seem to access your other articles, or the articles on the dogstuff site.

Could you provide the relevant link?

Hi Labluv, thanks for the remark, did you mean articles on the same site? if so there are non, I was not happy them about putting it on without me doing some corrections so I never put anything else on, sorry.

Edited October 12, 2006 by Denis Carthy

[dasha]

I may also don my flame suit.

I have seen our local clubs gradually diminish from being a working dog club to basically a herding club. A lot of instructors that have been around for years can see the $$$$$ signs tick over. If you tell people that their dog shows instinct and make the owners feel good, they will come back. In reality they are giving owners false hope and ripping them off.

I try to train my dogs for 3 sheep and yard dog trials yet I am trying to do this on sheep that are so dogged and trained you only have to take a dog near the yard and the sheep run over to you. It is very frustrating. When the working people suggest new sheep the herding guys say no as these "quiet" sheep are good for the herding dogs as these inexperienced dogs wouldn't handle sheep with any go in them.

I'm sorry but in my opinion I think the herding will eventually be the demise of the true working sheepdog. It almost makes mockery of the dogs that have been selectively bred and developed for many generations and have been the backbone of Australia Heritage get punted out in favour in inferior dogs that have a sport designed to suit as the traditional sheepdog sport is too hard.

I know I am going to be hammered for this post but is is just my honest opinion and I get very frustrated by it.

I think that The Kelpie clubs and working sheepdog training clubs need to stand up for what the generations before them have worked so hard for and need to protect the lines and integrity of the real working dog before its too late.

Better get that suit now

[Mooper]

I won't hammer you, dasha, but I will say that I see a bit of a catch 22. Yard dog and three-sheep trials need a supply of young blood and new interest to remain viable as a sport for working dogs. To some extent, I think herding workshops like the ones I attend can do this. Certainly the newly formed Bungendore & District Sheepdog Association is run by a group of very dedicated (mostly) women who want to see more youngish women involved in this sport. With working dogs from solid working lines.

On the other hand, I can see what you're saying. While we've only been doing this once a month for a few months, I know people who have been going to herding clinics for two days a month for over a year and they still have a dog that essentially just chases sheep. Or a dog that doesn't have a solid stop. They make progress in that perhaps a dog that used to grab doesn't do so any more, or a handler that used to rely on a PVC pipe or a rake uses only subtle hand movements or commands. But I can't get past how much those people must have spent on that many sessions

I guess for some people it's a social thing, for them and their dogs. A nice day or two out in the bush and the fresh air.

And for the serious folks, there are kennel clubs and trialling.

[jesomil]

Denis_carthy - interesting article. Food for thought.

Dasha - you are a brave person. Intersting thoughts though. I think i agree

I think herding can be a wonderful fun sport for some of the working group dogs but as long as there is understanding of the difference between dogs that have been bred for decades for their talent regardless of looks and dogs that have been bred for their looks while still being able to retain a small amount of their talent then i am sure we will retain the abilities of the true working sheepdog.

Does that make sense

But i guess that is why there are the 3 sheep, yard, utility trials that are for working sheepdogs and then there is the herding ones which are completely different. Gives everyone a go.

Edited October 12, 2006 by jesomil

[dasha]

Mooper, I do agree about the clubs. However around here the clubs have turned into herding clubs.

I feel this is due to a lot of non rural owners have a "working dog" that may have worked about 100 years ago but as there is not enough instinct there to aim at trialling in a tough skilled sport, the clubs tend to bow down to what the members needs for an average dog. IE dogged sheep, easy tests to encourage people to pay their training fees every week.

Rather than explain to people that they have a dog that is enjoying itself, but if they want to be serious about it, they may need a better bred dog from proven "working" lines with a guarantee to work (not potter around a pen). Surprisingly too they are usually cheaper!

The club need to make money and if people are discouraged tehy don't come back therefore lose money. If you make it better for them, even if it is false hope, at least the club will get the traing fees.

In order to train for trial with more life like sheep it seems the only way to do it is to have my own sheep that I can change when I need to and not have 50 dogs run aimlessly around for 5 hours a day

[Mooper]

OK, so here's the plan ... we all find people like me who have a fairly talentless mongrel and get them addicted to herding. Or people with a stunningly beautiful show-line border collie (hypothetically speaking, of course )

THEN when they've had their fun and done all they can do with their mongrel they start planning ahead to their next dog ... researching the working lines, getting to know the ins and outs of each of the associated sports.

And the future of trialling is in good hands.

That seems like the ideal outcome for such clubs that are struggling to make money, but don't want to "sell out".

[Vickie]

Hey Dasha!

Thought I recognised that pic!

I don't read much of DOL anymore but just got home from training, not reading for bed yet & found this thread. I've been out to EP a few times lately & am finding the sheep a bit better. B/C there are so few members out there now who are able/allowed to work outside the small yards, the sheep in the paddocks stay lighter most of the day as they haven't been worked much. Not as good as real sheep, but heaps better than they were. Seems like there are some changes happening out there & also talk of new sheep & turning them over more often. They are also talking about setting something up for yardwork there.

See you there Sunday?

[mjk05]

A lot of instructors that have been around for years can see the $$$$$ signs tick over. If you tell people that their dog shows instinct and make the owners feel good, they will come back. In reality they are giving owners false hope and ripping them off.

100% agree with that observation, dasha. Plus those people go on to believe their dogs have exactly the same "stuff" as the best working dogs, and if they are able to stay cocooned within the world of dogged sheep and courses to cater for their dogs, they never learn otherwise. That's not to say that they shouldn't be able to get out there and learn and have a go- I have started with a couple of very average dogs, with major major faults and deficits- but I'd rather get honest opinions on them (knowing that I'll keep training and working with them) than be pandered to and told how good they are. But that seems to be an increasingly unpopular view...

My thoughts on "instinct" are that its like "structure"- all dogs have it, but some have a totally different set of features that can make them better or worse suited for various purposes.

Eg my cattle dog has "herding instinct"- he is very interested in sheep, he wants to go around them and he has a general idea about keeping them together. Sometimes he has a vague idea about bringing them to me, but he's pretty happy to drive away too. His "instinctive parcel of traits" doesn't include much in the way of eye, or cover, or balance- but does include hocking and free flanking, and he's happy under pressure. He's actually a pretty handy dog on a big mob, is in his element on a couple of thousand, where he can just flank back and forth turning the edges in and keeping them moving.

My rescue kelpie has instinct- he works with eye and a bit of style, has a nice sense of balance but no natural pace or distance and is very lacking in cover, which is a bad combination- he pushes too hard, fast and close, but then is unable to cover the sheep when they ping off. He's also a bit short heading, I think. On dogged sheep, he can look really good, has lots of push and is very obedient, but on light or wild sheep, he's really lacking. He does back naturally, and is happy up close, so he's OK in the yards, but again is let down by his lack of cover.

They both have "instinct", it just doesn't happen to be the right combination to make them great or even good sheepdogs.

[dasha]

One of the clubs here actually had made more money before herding came about. It just got railroaded by money hungry intructors that are more interested in immediate gain than the future of the sport.

A sport is not about getting clubs to make money.

A sport is about trying to be the best and improve all the time and I don't feel that introducing "herding" is a conducive to preserving the sport of Sheepdog trialling.

Is there anything wrong with researching good lines and ins and outs of a sport before getting involved I ask? If you don't know what your end result should be, how are you gonna know what to get? Who doesn't plan for their next dog. Do show people not plan matings in the hope of producing their next winner, or do obedience people not look into lines to pick one from successful lines in order to compete in their chosen sport.

I am sure any person on here that has an interest (breeder) would tell any potential newcomer to research all they can about the breed before getting involved.

I still feel that "herding" was brought about for a multitude of reasons. One of being an activity that people can take part in with their dog with some working heritage and it has been made more appeallling by adding the possibility of titles to it.

Money is another major reason. State Canine regulatory bodies are of course very suppotive as all herding members need to be a member of that body (for Insurance purposes surely) in order to take part. How convenient. But if your working bred pedigreed dog isn't registered with them you can't enter so yet another fee to register, or of course you could support the mainstream bench type dogs by purchasing one of those from a breeder with titled dogs as they are from working lines now and good looking.

I am not saying that people with show dogs or alternative working dog breeds shouldn't be given the opportunity to take part in herding activities but I don't feel they are entitiled to make a competition sport from it when these people weren't interested in taking part in sheepdog trials previously as they were too hard unless you had a dog bred for this sport.

Vickie - hi there. Glad to hear that club is possibly improving. I won't be there for a while yet - foot still in plaster. you should know the pic - you took it

mjk05- I think we all start out with some pretty average dogs. But when you realise it is a sport you want to pursue you know you need to get a purpose bred dog. Like anything. Like you, I don't think that people shouldn't be given the opportunity to learn about the basics and to get a feel for the sport but I think it shouldn't be a titlted hobby. Sounds like you are enjoying your dogs and are sensible to know their capabilities. It is the best way to be. I know my dogs all have their own faults in some way but by ignoring them, I am kidding myself. I believe that every animal we have is sent here to teach us something but by denying faults you are denying the opportunity to learn and become abetter peron for it.

Edited October 12, 2006 by dasha

[Kavik]

This thread has made some interesting reading as Kaos is my first working line Kelpie and we are doing are first herding workshop next month. Thanks for the great read and keep it coming

[mjk05]

But when you realise it is a sport you want to pursue you know you need to get a purpose bred dog..... I believe that every animal we have is sent here to teach us something but by denying faults you are denying the opportunity to learn and become a better person for it.

Oh yeah, I agree- and I've got the purpose bred dog, plus a few spares. I used those 2 dogs as examples because they are the only 2 of our 19 dogs that have herding titles, and they both have heaps of "instinct", it just isn't a very good combination.

I don't necessarily have a problem with the titling idea in ANKC herding, but I don't like the way it has turned out, with people interpreting a pass at instinct test level as indicating that the dogs have "as much ability as any working bred dog" (sigh). And as you said, people are sticking with the stuff that makes them feel good, rather than moving out to the bigger working dog world, recognising their dogs' faults and learning from it.

If I hear another person boast about gaining their HIC or even PT, saying that it "proves that my dog has excellent working ability", I'll scream. Frankly the aforementioned (working bred) rescue kelpie looks pretty darn good at the instinct test/basic ANKC trial level, in comparison to most, and he can/does compete at 3sheep and yard trials, plus being pretty handy on the farm- but he's definitely not "excellent working ability", and I'd never breed from him in a pink fit.

I find myself thinking, "Your dog has "instinct"? Well, my dog has "structure", it doesn't mean he's got an ideal build for the show ring"... if you know what I mean.

[jesomil]

So, do you all think that the working capabilities come about through instinct or drive satisfaction?

I would have said instinct but from what i gathered earlier on, it has alot to do with drive satisfaction?

Or am i now confused? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Edited October 12, 2006 by jesomil

[wolfie]

Further back in the thread someone posted about 'dogged' sheep and how they are no good for real sheepdog training. Heavy, 'dogged' sheep have their role for many trainers, not just ones doing ANKC herding. 3 sheep triallers often keep a few to start pups on and to give less experienced dogs a more controlled situation. They aren't ideal for all situations, but there certainly are advantages in having some around.

I agree that there are huge differences between 3 sheep trialling and ANKC herding, but I don't see that the ANKC can be to the detriment of the sheepdog world at all. A couple of people have said here already that after starting the sport with a less than ideal dog, they went on to purchase, or plan to purchase a dog specifically bred to work sheep. I think that once people get bitten by the sheepdog 'bug' they'll be looking around at all sheepdog sports for potential activities.

[superminty]

OK, so here's the plan ... we all find people like me who have a fairly talentless mongrel and get them addicted to herding.

THEN when they've had their fun and done all they can do with their mongrel they start planning ahead to their next dog :rolleyes: ... researching the working lines, getting to know the ins and outs of each of the associated sports.

That's what happened to me! I was warned that herding was addictive and it has certainly turned out that way. I am eternally grateful for the "sport" of herding for introducing me to the wonderful kelpie - one of which I now own - a breed that suits all my purposes.

Increased interest in "herding" brings new blood into the sport - bringing both positives and negatives, as is unavoidable but also IMO necessary for the continued survival of a little known sport. As Mooper's plan suggests - get them in, get them interested, hopefully they will, like me, go out and get themselves a good dog, one that is capable of adding to the integrity and success of the "sport" - then the standards will improve.

As mjk05 mentioned, there seems to be a lot of confusion (within my limited expereince of ANKC herding) as to what instinct is - instinct tests don't prove a dog has instinct and ANKC titles don't prove the dog has working ability - I know, my older dog has very little natural ability (read "instinct"), but she has her PT and we are going to try for her HSA. I see herding titles as training achievements, not a test of instinct and working ability.

There is, however, room within ANKC herding for education - it is also an accessible starting point for those of us in suburbia who want to "give it a go" and then decide to get a good dog and take it further. I for one can't wait to venture into the world of yard dog trials etc. and get my dog working to the best of his abilities. Nothing better than seeing a dog doing what he was bred for. :rolleyes:

Edited October 13, 2006 by superminty

[Kelpie-i]

There ain't nothing wrong with getting your suburban dog out and working - thanks to the growing popularity of herding, there will be many a dog who feel that they have a purpose in life, rather than just guard the concrete backyard!

[jesomil]

What a cute pic of your baby in your avatar !!!!

[wolfie]

I agree with superminty and mjk05 in that to describe a dog that has obtained the ANKC herding test certificates as having instinct is wrong. Those tests show that the dog has interest in the sheep and basic obedience with distraction, but instinct is not being tested.

Is it possible to have a dog with no real instinct, but who is wonderfully biddable to achieve in 3 sheep and yard dog trials? I read once of a successful 3 sheep trialler who said that he could train a labrador to be a successful yard dog.

As important as instinct in a working sheepdog is biddability. If the dog is unable to listen and obey commands which go against its basic instinct, eg getting the dog to work off balance, it isn't much use as a sheepdog.

I believe that the ANKC herding trials are a good venue for people with dogs with herding ancestry, but no recent breeding or way of assessing innate ability. It's fantastic to see a dog that has been selectively bred to have a long poofy coat, 'switch on' and start going to the head and fetching them back with no training. The instinct while no doubt inferior to a working sheepdog is still there to a degree. An organisation which provides a venue and outlet for training and competition is great for that dog and handler. No they'll probably never be great at it, nor are many dog and handler teams that trial in obedience and agility. They do it for the team work, challenge and sport; not to be world winners. If that was the case all agility dogs would be small medium size with no tiny ones or giant breeds.

Re suitability of dogged sheep for trialling, they are pretty useless at the higher levels of the ANKC courses as well. Sheep are required to be driven away from the handler, which is incredibly hard if they keep rushing back to them to get away from the dog.

[Kelpie-i]

Who's pic are you referring to Jesomil???

Would you belive that the pup in Superminty's avatar and the pup in mine are brothers!

[herding_guy]

I have seen our local clubs gradually diminish from being a working dog club to basically a herding club. A lot of instructors that have been around for years can see the $$$$$ signs tick over. If you tell people that their dog shows instinct and make the owners feel good, they will come back. In reality they are giving owners false hope and ripping them off.

Hi Dasha,

I'm not a "club" but I do run herding workshops / days / weekends for all people and dogs. Definitely not for the money (because it doesn't make any) but because there are 100's - 1000's of working bred dogs trapped in backyards around suburbia chasing flies.

THere is nothing I like better than seeing a 5yo AW Kelpie see sheep for the first time and switch on and work like it's worked all it's life. Even better when the owners decide they are going to give trialling a go or get sheep on their property or tell you their dog helped next door get 20 stray ewes penned after training with me for a couple of months.

I invite all sorts of dogs and handlers to attend because they may love it so much they will go out and find a working bred dog and train that to become a future champ.

I try to train my dogs for 3 sheep and yard dog trials yet I am trying to do this on sheep that are so dogged and trained you only have to take a dog near the yard and the sheep run over to you. It is very frustrating. When the working people suggest new sheep the herding guys say no as these "quiet" sheep are good for the herding dogs as these inexperienced dogs wouldn't handle sheep with any go in them.

Are these "herding guys " experienced triallers / trainers and if so maybe they are right. An inexperiened dog can be ruined on the wrong sheep.

I'm sorry but in my opinion I think the herding will eventually be the demise of the true working sheepdog. It almost makes mockery of the dogs that have been selectively bred and developed for many generations and have been the backbone of Australia Heritage get punted out in favour in inferior dogs that have a sport designed to suit as the traditional sheepdog sport is too hard.

I think you are very wrong - but who realy knows???

I breed AW Kelpies and they are in demand for work and trial. Why trialling ...because people have tasted it with their current dog and now want to go further. It can only be good for trialling.

It almost makes mockery of the dogs that have been selectively bred and developed for many generations and have been the backbone of Australia Heritage get punted out in favour in inferior dogs that have a sport designed to suit as the traditional sheepdog sport is too hard.

I disagree because 3 sheep and yard / utility has not altered. Where has the activity of herding been altered to suit inferior dogs and why would inferior dogs be chosen over supreior dogs??????????????

In my opinion and many other well respected working dog breeders and trainers believe trialling herding dogs may be the demise of the true working dog. Choosing bidable, sensitive/soft dogs over stronger types. ( but let's not get into this debate)

No hammering just good ol' banter.

[jesomil]

Your avatar Kelpie-i. Its a really cute shot. They both look like gorgeous boys though. And brothers!!!!

ETA Hey HG, can we come out for a play again soon??

Edited October 13, 2006 by jesomil