How Do You Define Instinct

[superminty]

Just for comparison, a recent pic of Cash (from my phone, terrible quality)

[herding_guy]

Your avatar Kelpie-i. Its a really cute shot. They both look like gorgeous boys though. And brothers!!!!

ETA Hey HG, can we come out for a play again soon??

...and here is the other brother Mouse....the ugly one....and his dad Scout

come out and give 'me a run whenever you want.

[Kelpie-i]

Thanks jesomil!

Superminty, Cash's ears are both up - Gabe's are still trying to decide which way they will point :rolleyes:

HG, Mouse is not ugly....he's gorgeous!

Edited October 13, 2006 by Kelpie-i

[superminty]

Gabe's are still trying to decide which way they will point :rolleyes:

All depends on which way the wind is blowing, eh? Cash definately takes after Tuppy in the looks department. Those cheekbones! (or whatever they're called in dogs!)

Sorry guys, seem to have high-jacked this thread! :rolleyes:

[jesomil]

Any Kelpie hijacking is fine with me :rolleyes:

Wow, so they are all grown up since those avatar pics. They all look beautiful!!

So are there any more brothers or sisters on DOL??

[mjk05]

So, do you all think that the working capabilities come about through instinct or drive satisfaction?

I think its instinct. Cover, stock sense, pace, strength (which I think is just self-confidence), stuff like that. I don't really see how you can explain something like pace or cover with pure drive theory (although that stuff has its place in working dogs too).

[mjk05]

Is it possible to have a dog with no real instinct, but who is wonderfully biddable to achieve in 3 sheep and yard dog trials? I read once of a successful 3 sheep trialler who said that he could train a labrador to be a successful yard dog.

Greg Prince said that, I think, in reference to yard trials.

I don't think it would be that easy, myself (but then I'm just a beginner)...

As I described before, I have a very keen kelpie who is pretty natural in the yards- he likes to back, he's happy working up close and will stand up to sheep that give him a hard time. He's easy to TRAIN, because he's so biddable, and he's my favourite dog for yard work at home- he will work a race for 7 hours straight until he can hardly stand.

But in the yard trial situation, he is a struggle. He just doesn't have enough cover, and he will lose sheep across the yard, and blow all his points just getting a tricky force pen entry. That doesn't matter if we're working a thousand sheep all day, but he'll never win a yard trial. He is very obedient, and if I was a decent handler with more trial experience, I could probably anticipate breaks etc, and handle him cleverly so we don't get problems he can't deal with. But I think it would be obvious to observers, and would let us down eventually.

OTOH, I ran one of my young collies in his first yard trial recently, even though he can't back or bark and won't stop when he's told (and has rarely set foot in yards). He has some pretty decent breeding (although has his own set of faults)- he was so much less stressful to work, and I think has much more potential. Even though the first dog might have scored better, I think it was pretty obvious to observers which dog was better.

Maybe a great handler can make a mediocre dog look great sometimes, but I don't think it would be a consistent phenomenon.

Edited October 13, 2006 by mjk05

[Denis Carthy]

Maybe a great handler can make a mediocre dog look great sometimes, but I don't think it would be a consistent phenomenon.

Couldn't agree more, the most common example are things such as agility and obedience competions. To the untrained eye the dogs look as if they would do anything at anytime no matter what the 'non-competition' environment happens to have as stimulants.

Drop the same dog and handler in a strange place with plenty multi stimulus distractions, then see what happens.

Edited October 14, 2006 by Denis Carthy

[Lablover]

Labluv

Denis, I cannot seem to access your other articles, or the articles on the dogstuff site.

Could you provide the relevant link?

Hi Labluv, thanks for the remark, did you mean articles on the same site? if so there are non, I was not happy them about putting it on without me doing some corrections so I never put anything else on, sorry.

For interest Denis,

What do you do with your dogs, your experience and so forth?

Your theory seems very sound.

[Vickie]

Maybe a great handler can make a mediocre dog look great sometimes, but I don't think it would be a consistent phenomenon.

Couldn't agree more, the most common example are things such as agility and obedience competions. To the untrained eye the dogs look as if they would do anything at anytime no matter what the 'non-competition' environment happens to have as stimulants.

Drop the same dog and handler in a strange place with plenty multi stimulus distractions, then see what happens.

I don't really understand the analogy here?

I think good sheepdog handlers often do make dogs look better, regardless of the environment they are in. Good handlers know how to read the sheep and will often use what is natural/instinct in the dog as well as their strengths to move sheep. This is why a good handler can get some pretty impressive stuff out of a talented dog who has had little training.

I'm not sure you can say the same for agility/obedience? An untrained dog with a good handler is still an untrained dog. There is no "instinct" to use in agility/obedience.

Sorry if I have misunderstood, but I just don't get it?

[sidoney]

Just want to jump in here on the "get them interested and then they will get a good dog and get into trialing" theme.

This would be great IF there are the facilities for suburban dog owners like me to effectively train dogs. Now apparently EP is getting better - that would be good - but even if you have a working bred dog - which I have - if you don't have sheep that will behave like sheep you get nowhere with the dog and it's very frustrating. I drove from Sydney to Geelong last January to take my dog to her breeder's place and improve our sheep work - to find out that she'd never learned how to head because of those overdogged sheep - we spent the time encouraging her to head, out in the 5 acre paddock, was pleased that eventually we got to the point where she WOULD head them and not let them get away to their favourite treed corner. But it took time. And when I get back to Sydney, nowhere to go to let her head sheep that will actually run. So what do I do? I worked sheep with her once since our trip, but know that I need to keep with the heading - not much chance for that. I've basically given it away as I understand that tailing overdogged sheep will be detrimental to her herding. Going to a few hours workshop in Bungendore next month, hopefully that will be good, but I just don't know where to go with it.

I went and watched a short course trial at EP - last year I think. Seemed like a number of dogs there did not know how to go to the head, but chased the sheep around. Variety of breeds including dogs one might imagine would work, not show type dogs (and a few show type dogs). I'd venture to guess these dogs have never worked sheep that actually run, and make them learn to head.

[dasha]

Sidoney,

You seen to be having the same trouble I have also. It is very frustrating to have sheep that are dogged for the exact reasons you say.

I also find that these sheep also teach bad habits to experienced dogs. In a majority of cases the only way for the dog to get any respect for the dog as for the dog to end up rushing in to bite at them as the sheep are so used to having 20 novice dogs racing around them for hours and they are too tired to run or just used to dogs. The other problem is that when having these inexperienced dogs chasing the sheep, the sheep soon get a bit sick of it and start to take the novice dogs on and will usually win as the dogs get scared and back off so you are really endangering your dogs. The sheep get too confident and start to take the dogs on which isn't ideal for more advanced dogs as it is not normal behaviour for sheep that would be used in trials or on a farm.

As you have discovered, the dogs don't learn to cover over any distance as the sheep that are available at training never break when the pressure is on and so the dog doesn't get to learn about applying correct pressure and reading sheep.

I found that I was able to help my dog alot with Indian Runner ducks. I have 5 acres and so I could work them out in the paddock and next door. These ducks to not hang around a handler or dog believe me. If the dog isn't switched on - you lose the ducks as they run away - but then you get to cast again

I am also looking in to approaching the knackery to ask about using their sheep. I am also going to ask the neighbours if I can run a few sheep on their 40 acres so I can train when I want and get new sheep when I need them so I can have a supply of "runny" sheep.

You really need to enter the trials though to see the areas you need to work on as you don't get a good guide from the club sheep. In some ways you have to use the trials for training. Are you looking at doing 3 sheep or yard trials with your dogs?

[sidoney]

Neither, I'm interested in the new format that's being set up. My girl is not bred to be a yard dog, although her dad can do yard work but her mother is more of a paddock worker - she may be able to do yard work, but I want to maintain the paddock work. She's not bred to be a 3 sheep dog.

Not sure if we'll get to the stage where we can trial, given our lack of ability to train.

Lucky you to have some facilities - your ideas sound good. My horses have a 15 acre paddock to themselves, and more grass than they can poke a stick at, but it's half an hour away from my place, and I worry about marauding dogs mauling them. So I've not gone any further with it.

Edited October 18, 2006 by sidoney

[dasha]

Which new format are you meaning?

My dog was bred to be a station dog with more yard type breeding. She has however thrown back to someone futher back in her breeding as is much better suited to working wider and calmer. I did a lot of yard work with her and trialled her in Yard trials just to get exposure to proper sheep and confidence to work closer.

Her natural preference is to cover wide and so I am going to pursue the 3 sheep avenue for her. She is much better suited for that. Even her breeder was surprised as she has a lot of yard blood.

I would rather do yard trials and although she can get around with a good score it really is like flogging a dead horse so to speak.

You will always get better results if you enhance what the animal does better naturally.

[sidoney]

This link will take you to the yahoo group for the new trialing format ... SheepdogTrials_Australia ... Australian Sheep Dog Society. It's still in the formative stages but looks to be better than yard or 3 sheep trials for my dog. Edited October 18, 2006 by sidoney

[dasha]

Thanks heaps for that. Will go and look

[superminty]

Just want to jump in here on the "get them interested and then they will get a good dog and get into trialing" theme.

This would be great IF there are the facilities for suburban dog owners like me to effectively train dogs.

The presumption is that you would already have reasonable access to appropriate facilities - otherwise why get a working bred dog with the intention of working it? If I didn't have access to sheep on a regular basis, I wouldn't be able to consider trialling my boy - he is going to be my agility dog anyway, all going well. He still may not be trialling material - but I may decide to pursue it further in the future.

I am in suburbia but am lucky to have sheep 20 mins away - I also travel 45 mins once a week to train on different sheep with a wonderful trainer - I am pretty lazy so if there weren't sheep near by, I probably wouldn't be training my dog to work. Commonsense really.

[Kavik]

Maybe people don't know what appropriate facilities are? There are two places that I know of in Sydney, the same places sidoney knows. From what I have heard, both places have the same problem with sheep. But city people who have never done sheep work before and who have a herding type dog and want to give it a go, won't know the difference in the sheep. They don't know how the sheep are supposed to act, or what type of problems could occur with the sheep that are available. The only reason I know is because of my contact with sidoney and vickie and a few others.

I am going to the herding workshop with sidoney with Kaos, should be fun as it will be Kaos's first time on sheep and mine as well

My main activity with Kaos is going to be agility. I knew that access to sheep might be difficult, so how much sheep work we do or how seriously we get into it depends on how much access we are able to get.

[Mooper]

So Sidoney and Kavik will both be down for the Bungendore workshop? Cool

The Bungendore & District Sheepdog Association are hoping to eventually afford our own mob and agistment space for club use. Because, as others have said, a workshop once every month or two with no sheep in between is only going to do so much ... several club members have moved to properties and run a few sheep themselves for in-between sessions.

I don't think I'll be participating with Jack at the next Bungendore workshop, but I'll probably be there as an auditor.

Jack and I are doing some off-sheep work before I want him on them again ... too much playing chasies and not enough attention to me. It's pretty much the story of Jack's life so I think we're doomed. But at least he's giving me plenty of challenges so I can learn what not to do before getting a sheepdog somewhere wayyy down the track

[sidoney]

For me, I got my Kelpie to do dogsports. Along the way I got interested in herding.

The next bit is sort of thinking in text so it may be a bit rambly. Also I'm writing from the viewpoint of someone who got interested but found it difficult to pursue, definitely not someone with a lot of experience or expertise.

IMO it would be kind of hard to have it both ways, that is, a club that can properly cater to the good working bred dogs. Someone without regular access to fresh sheep is going to be behind the eight ball in training their dog. Maybe the clubs near suburban and urban areas may as well aim to the suburban herders without desire to do or knowledge of "proper" sheepdog work, that is, doing work with a bit of a challenge with fresh undogged sheep, or without dogs that can. People who know more than me have told me that if my dog works too much on dogged sheep it will harm rather than help her. If all I wanted her to to was to work those kinds of sheep, fine. But I'd rather see her do what she's bred to do well, than some kind of version that approximates it. That's me. To train a dog properly takes more than suburban people typically have access to. Not sure how a club near a city centre would maintain fresh sheep, with herding every weekend, without regular stock turnover, and that may be expensive - not really sure of the mechanics of it. Perhaps a mix of dogged and runny sheep, kind of like Vickie was describing. Can one cater to different kinds of herding wants?

A number of people have said to me to develop the heading ability before putting command on the dog, but where I went (near Sydney) was the opposite to that - had to have commands on in a small area before moving to a larger one - early guidance by one of the people there nearly knocked the desire out of my dog to work away and go for the head. Dogs following commands rather than working sheep. It was disappointing for me to take my dog, that I thought was going OK, to "real" sheep and learn just how much neither of us knew. A credit to her that she was looking like she would overcome that early exposure - if only I had regular access to sheep to work.

ETA: there is also the issue of sheep welfare. I worry about sheep that are worked for hours, often in hot weather, and often with chasey dogs that may put a bite in. I know they get breaks but they do look very stressed.

Mooper, my daughter is coming also with a rescue Border Collie, Pickle - we'll see how Pickle does.

Edited October 19, 2006 by sidoney