How Do You Define Instinct

[jesomil]

What behaviours does your dog do that shows you he has instinct?

I have been pondering this thought lately as herding has become more popular and i have seen a few photos of different dogs herding. It has led me to be interested as to how is instinct defined in a dog.

Do different breeds show instinct in different way?

I have no experience in ANKC herding and no experience with other breeds other than working line sheepdogs.

I would be interested in peoples thoughts.

[JulesP]

My border collies, from show lines, all do that crouch, stare and creep forward thing. They go nuts if the horses are running around. My old girl in particular gets very anxious if I am doing anything with the horses and seems to want to get in and help. She will also sit in front of the horses and give them the evil eye and snap at them if they move! Both the older dogs would run around the outside of horses/cows and herd them into a bunch, never any barking and running at them.

The young pup likes herding the cats!

All 3 have been quite serious dogs and their eyes just glow if they think that I am giving them a job to do, even if it is just going to the washing line.

[superminty]

The pup's overwhelming desire to cover and balance - not taught, certainly instinct.

I don't believe that merely showing interest in stock is instinct - a lot of dogs are interested, but that doesn't mean they're gonna work! My older dog has moments of brilliance, but I don't think there is a lot of instinct there - she mainly does what I tell her to. The pup reads the situation and adjusts his position accordingly - I certainly didn't teach him that and I don't think he'd listen anyway - according to him, kelpies know best!

[herding_guy]

The pup's overwhelming desire to cover and balance - not taught, certainly instinct.

...and head - can't teach a dog to head stock.

The pup reads the situation and adjusts his position accordingly - I certainly didn't teach him that and I don't think he'd listen anyway - according to him, kelpies know best!

a good kelpie will always think they know best and you know they ussually do :D

Edited October 11, 2006 by herding_guy

[Dog Logics]

Hi Jesomil

What behaviors does your dog do that shows you he has instinct?

Much depends on the breed. Kelpies, Border Collies, Australian Shepherd and Australian Cattle Dog would generally have more of the working lines still in their genes whereas the German Shepherd, Rottweiller and other herding breeds have not been used for herding purposes for so long may well have diminished instincts. Also some breeds are gathers and others are herders so once again each will have a slight variation on what instinct they show if any.

Superminty is correct

The pup's overwhelming desire to cover and balance - not taught, certainly instinct.

I don't believe that merely showing interest in stock is instinct - a lot of dogs are interested, but that doesn't mean they're gonna work!

It must always be remembered that dogs are predators so most will show interest in any form of livestock but this will not necessarily mean the dog has 'working instinct.'

Herding_guy

..and head - can't teach a dog to head stock.

Yes, this is instinct but will not always show up in dogs that lack confidence. Pup's and the softer dog will generally not head until they have worked on balancing for awhile and become more confident at being able to move sheep. Not every herding dog has that special 'get out do the job' temperament some have to be schooled and trained to encourage the development of instinct and then the handler can put command over instinct.

To assess instinct I would have some good dog broke sheep in a small round yard and then introduce the dog making sure I am in a position to protect the sheep. The dog should show an inclination to want to move sheep by either moving to the head (confident dog) or to-wards the tail (dogs lacking confidence) then if I move my posture and position correctly the dog should try to work in balance to me but of course you are then helping the dog but not telling it what to do.

One with instinct will begin to catch on to how the game works by moving into a position which controls the sheep to the handler and in co-operation with the handler. The dog that wonders off to eat sheep lollies or pee on a post would be said to lack interest and therefore not process instinct. The dog that rushes straight for the nearest is generally sizing up the best quality sheep steaks and is running on predatory instinct so again not a likely candidate for herding.

For the skilled eye one would look to see if the dog had 'eye', is he a dog that bites and grabs, has he got a natural cast, will he go to the head or the rear, in dogs bred to work going to the tail end is rare but it can happen, what body posture is displayed dropping low almost crawling along.

If you think your dog might be suited then the best thing to do is go along to a Herding Day and watch, talk to the instructors and I'm sure they will be happy to advise and even have a look at your dog for you. It's great fun and a good challenge for handlers too.

[jesomil]

Thanks for all your replies and opinions!!

But to add a little more to what i am trying to get at -

I have a great amount of instinct in my dog and we are just starting competing in yard dog trials. His lines have been selectively bred for stock work for a very long time and i chose his lines and him solely for these qualities.

I have my own opinion as to what is instinct in a dog but was wondering what others were.

I have seen on some websites sheep running flat chat with a dog on their tails and the owner proudly displays this as a wonderful herding picture. I wouldnt necessarily agree.

I understand with the dogs who show obvious ability but i have trouble believing the dog has instinct when it just tries to chase the stock. Most dogs will chase stock.

Can other breeds show working instinct? excluding the dogs bred these days solely for their working ability.

I have never seen any other breeds working except for the kelpies and borders so i am interested to know.

An example is of my rotty who could move stock quite well. But that is because i taught her stop, left, right and walk in etc. No instinct just an obedient dog.

Edited October 11, 2006 by jesomil

[superminty]

sheep running flat chat with a dog on their tails

I have seen some of these - IMO not herding!

i have trouble believing the dog has instinct when it just tries to chase the stock

Completely agree - again, not herding.

Perhaps instinct is the ability to think and work independantly to a handler, as well as in partnership. I too have a dog that has been taught to "herd", whereas a dog with instinct doesn't need to be taught necessarily, more so managed. We put words to the actions, but the actions are already there - the behaviour is merely captured, not taught. A dog with instinct should have his own ideas of how to work the stock and not have to rely on the handler's interpretation of the situation.

Edited October 11, 2006 by superminty

[jesomil]

Perhaps instinct is the ability to think and work independantly to a handler, as well as in partnership. I too have a dog that has been taught to "herd", whereas a dog with instinct doesn't need to be taught necessarily, more so managed. We put words to the actions, but the actions are already there - the behaviour is merely captured, not taught. A dog with instinct should have his own ideas of how to work the stock and not have to rely on the handler's interpretation of the situation.

(i wish i knew how to do the quote thing properly.........)

I love how you describe it!!

[herding_guy]

Herding_guy

..and head - can't teach a dog to head stock.

Yes, this is instinct but will not always show up in dogs that lack confidence. Pup's and the softer dog will generally not head until they have worked on balancing for awhile and become more confident at being able to move sheep. Not every herding dog has that special 'get out do the job' temperament some have to be schooled and trained to encourage the development of instinct and then the handler can put command over instinct.

All dogs have to be "schooled and trained" no matter what temperament they have. When starting a dog it is important to give all dogs chances to head to learn to use the instinct so they may control, hold stock. It is important that the motor pattern is developed but this is true for all behaviours.

The dog that wonders off to eat sheep lollies or pee on a post would be said to lack interest and therefore not process instinct.

This dog could be in avoidance, feeling too much pressure from stock and handler or whole situation and should not be discounted all together.

For the skilled eye one would look to see if the dog had 'eye', is he a dog that bites and grabs, has he got a natural cast, will he go to the head or the rear, in dogs bred to work going to the tail end is rare but it can happen, what body posture is displayed dropping low almost crawling along.

I would never consider grab - bite as a suitable prey instinct behaviour for herding. I never allow my dogs to bite much less grab and woudn't breed from stock that show this.

Eye is important. A dog should be able to move a lead sheep with eye alone.

Other instincts I like are backing, and barking.

Presence is also a good thing not to many dogs have this anymore.

I also like a dog that keeps his/her sheep calm...some do this naturally.

[herding_guy]

Perhaps instinct is the ability to think and work independantly to a handler, as well as in partnership. I too have a dog that has been taught to "herd", whereas a dog with instinct doesn't need to be taught necessarily, more so managed. We put words to the actions, but the actions are already there - the behaviour is merely captured, not taught.

You make it sound a bit too easy and I suppose it is if you only want a dog that will bring some sheep to you from 3m away and walk around in a circle.

A dog bred for herding still needs to be trained. There is a development stage, a teaching phase, training and proofing. Most is natural training as you said but the behaviours still need to be shaped. A lot of it is about controlling thresholds and choreographing behaviour sequences.

However there are a lot of behaviours that need to be trained through inducement and sometimes via compulsion. It all depends on what you want from your dog.

A dog with instinct should have his own ideas of how to work the stock and not have to rely on the handler's interpretation of the situation.

Yes I agree but there are always circumstances that you need to take control and guide the dog. For instance if I'm working cattle I don't want the dog to use his gathering desire, I want him to drive stock.

[Mooper]

Interesting question. I'm a complete novice, and my dog was 6yo before he saw sheep, so we're both fairly clueless.

We attend sheepdog school more to improve the dog/handler bond than anything else. I have been told (by several instructors now) that he has "instinct" ... in one case, I clearly remember Bernard Arends saying this when Jack used his voice to move five sheep out of the corner of the yard. He did it again when they were stubborn. He will go along the fenceline to get them out of there, too. It depends on the situation but he uses his voice to good effect. So much so that Bernard decided he must have Huntaway in there! :D

I recall our very first sheepdog school, with Robert Cox at Binalong. Jack was visibly uncomfortable at being told to drop when one sheep was breaking away from the mob. It got to be too much and he brought that sheep back, then came back to me and Robert. Robert called that a sign of instinct.

So instinct seems to mean different things in different situations. And the signs probably vary by breed.

He shows a fair bit of eye, and I've seen him crouch a few times, but generally he's quite "pushy". Not to the detriment of the sheep. I think it's a different style of working due to whatever breeds he's made up of, and I don't know enough to describe it any other way than "pushy" He prefers to work the head.

Anyway, we're learning and having fun :D

He's next to useless in a paddock so far. But we have barely put sides on him yet. Every instructor (we've had 5 or 6) has said he would have been a great yard dog if we'd got him when young. And they say I read him well and that he balances well. That's good enough for a newbie like me.

[Dog Logics]

Herding_guy you are correct I wrote that rather badly I too would not like it if my dogs bit or grabbed at sheep. I was trying to explain if you were assessing the dog what sort of behavior was he showing and from this you would determine if he was showing instinct to work and was he suitable for the job.

If assessing I tend to allow the dog to make the moves when I say "eating sheep lollies" I am talking about the dog that has been brought into a pen with say three sheep and instead of looking at the sheep he's off eating lollies. I am not referring to what a dog would do to release stress from to much pressure during training.Dogs under stress will also grab and bite at sheep so I guess perhaps I should have written a little more clearly.

Thank you for picking me up on that. :D

[superminty]

A dog bred for herding still needs to be trained.

... there are always circumstances that you need to take control and guide the dog.

Agree with all the above, however we're just talking about defining instinct here - there's no denying that further training is required.

Instinct defined in a dictionary is "innate impulse, natural inclination, an inborn pattern of behaviour..." The first time you put a dog on sheep, what are you looking for? What do you see as an indication that the dog will work or that a dog has talent?

Instinct can only take you so far, yes, but it gives us as handlers something to work with.

Shall we compare Minty's first time on sheep to that of Cash's? Have to say Cash has "instinct" as I define it, Miss Minty, delightful as she is, doesn't.

Instinct is what the dog does without thinking, just because it feels right - whether he is right or not all depends on our interpretation - the time to control and guide comes later, with training.

You can teach a dog to do almost anything, but everything runs smoother (although not necessarily easier) if you are working with the dog's natural capabilities. These capabilities are what I call "instinct".

ETA: some more stuff ;) I'm supposed to be studying!

Edited October 11, 2006 by superminty

[jesomil]

I agree that instinct is something that is there (or not) without any training.

An example is the first time my boy saw stock.

I had 5 ducks and a 7 week old kelpie. I put him on the ground and this tiny fat brown pup ran straight around to the head of the ducks and started pushing them towards me. Where ever i moved he naturally balanced to me.

All i had was a rake to push him out when he got a bit too exuberant.

It was an amazing example of pure instinct.

Since then, i have just worked with this instinct, added commands to what he does and then obviously broadened what he does by teaching other commands that work with the natural instinct.

Here is a pic of the floppy eared, goofy looking lad (not that it helps the discussion in any way ;) )

[dasha]

Jesomil, I believe that what you have just said is what I would say is a true instinct. When even without training he gathered the stock and started to bring them to you. And he also adjusted himself according to your actions.

I believe this is a desirable instinct as opposed to the chase instinct I have seen at so many of the sheepdog training clubs. There is a distinct difference between controlling a chase drive through obedience or simply guiding and enhancing a natural instinct to gather and fetch.

Again you would be looking for different instinct behaviours between a driving dog and a heading dog as opposed to one that has the drive to chase around and around with its head in the crouch, stalk position.

I think if you were wanting a driving dog, the natural instinct you would be looking for would be a dog that without any training would go straight behind the stock and push them usually away from the handler and keep them together (loose definition thanks) but also without spooking or running the sheep too hard or splitting the mob into multiple groups.

If I was after a heading dog I would be looking for a dog that without any training would naturally arc around to the head of the stock and turn them back towards the handler (farmer) and gather the mob and bring them back at a pace adapted to the sheep. These dogs should apply the appropriate amount of pressure on the stock to move them but not split them but also not too little pressure that you have a whole line of stock coming back in a fan shape.

In my opinion good sheepdog should be able to work over a large area, often unsupervised yet have the ability and desire to carry out what its genetics suggest. By that I mean that a dog should be able to be taken somewhere new sent out around the sheep and it should have enough desire to just want to do that not run and sniff and cock legs etc but also have the ability to gather the mob and bring them back to me (if its a heading dog) without me telling the dog where it should be positioned or the distance it should be from the sheep while I can stay at the yards to set up gates, fences, drench etc and I can trust the sheep will be delivered to the yards in good condition (not run too fast or wasted too much time walking).

[Denis Carthy]

Hi Jesomil

I did an artical a couple of years ago defineing drives from instinct, it's at the link below, BUT, I want to point out, there are a couple of tech errors in it, the site owners put it online before it was sent back to me for revision and it was left as it still appears.

http://www.dogstuff.info/understanding_drives_denis.html

[Kelpie-i]

Very interesting piece Denise, I didn't know that about wasps!!

My 7 month old Kelpie has a strong presence, shows eye (but is not sticky) and definitely goes to the head. As HG knows, he has a habit of snapping at the sheep at times, albeit we have only ever worked him on no more than 5 sheep and I hope that we can stop him from this.

I also have a corgi x who, when going for a walk off lead, will "drive" us, but put her in with sheep in a round pen and she's a "crash bash" sort of dog. Were corgi's more a driving dog than gathering??

There is a distinct difference between controlling a chase drive through obedience or simply guiding and enhancing a natural instinct to gather and fetch.

Jesomil, I think the word here is "outlet"...we are giving the drive to chase an outlet - we can control the urge to chase to a certain degree using obedience, but sooner or later and in some situations the urge/drive will become too strong and if left unguarded, the dog will give chase.

I know of a dog who chased sheep (not a herding dog) and terrorised them. The owners used obedience to gain a solid "stay" and "leave it" command and also deployed the use of an e-collar which helped the situation for a while, but the urge to chase was so strong that the dog took to chasing the sheep, regardless of the level of stim applied.

[Lablover]

OUTSTANDING THREAD!!!!!!!!

[Lablover]

Denis,

I cannot seem to access your other articles, or the articles on the dogstuff site.

Could you provide the relevant link?

[Coolibah Coolies]

Great thread I am in agreeance regarding photos of dogs chasing biting and working real close and being touted as having working instinct.

I love it when I show my pups and young dogs stock for the first time and they just do the whole heading and balance thing naturally it is awesome. And when a rescue comes in from no background and is an adult dog it is even more awesome to see the instinct just emerge, I love it.

I too worry about the whole herding phenomenom and have also seen some shockers at workshops. IMO Some of the instructors seem to just be in it for the money and that worries me, better don my flame suit now.