Assumption That Titles Equals Knowledgable Trainer

[Rom]

I am aware situations where people with titles on their dogs believe that they are superior dog trainers to those that don't have titles. I just want those who go looking for training mentors or obedience clubs to know that there are many reasons why really good trainers may not have titles on their dogs:

*They may not be interested in competing

*If they do compete, they may not be as serious about winning

*Some compete for the social outing rather than to win at all costs

*They may not have the time to put into their own dogs to train them to competition level standards but they really enjoy helping others achieve their goals.

*Titles may not be the end goal of their training program. For example, there are no titles to compete for for assistance dogs or guide dogs for the blind, or excellent family pets where manners and loose lead walking are more important than precise heeling.

On the other side of the spectrum, there are some that I know that have titled dogs that:

*Will compete with injured dogs on pain killers

*Believe that the best way to deal with dog aggressive dogs is to put 2 of them together and punish them when they react.

*Believe that the alpha roll is the way to punish a dog for dog aggression

*Do not assess the dog before implementing a training program.

*Will write a dog off as a possible obedience competitor without considering that it may need a different training method, meaning that if you have a problem dog and end up in a class instructed by them they will basically tell you to get rid of the dog, or the dog will never be any good.

I'm not saying that all owners of titled dogs are guilty of the above, but just that I know of some who are, so I don't believe that titles alone are an indication of the training expertise of the dog owner.

[jaybeece]

Wow, I never considered titles with obedience instructors.

I've always looked to my instructor's dogs to see how they respond and to me it's always been a good indication of their ability & knowledge.

[wheres my rock]

yup lok at the dog the way the instructors spaks and deals with issues etc

i have several titles on my dogs and love trialling not as a competitve thing but as a way to test my trianing against a set of criteria. you dont have to win to gain a pass and i love th social side of it

I agree though we have a some very serious trial people that i wouldnt go near for help yet they attract poeple from all over

[dogdude]

I think its more a horses for courses thing.

Personally, If I was to start out again with the intention of trialling, I would seek out a mentor with a dog with the highest degree of title, in which I aggreed with their training methods.

Their ringcraft and interment knowledge of trialling would be more than usefull. Their dog would be one that I admired, and be all that I wanted my own dog to be.

A newbie handler usually just wants a managable dog and dosnt know anything about competition, and are not often interested until they eventually get bitten by the bug.

There is always something to be learn't about dog training from most experienced handlers, no matter what methods they use, or what you think you know as one. Thats why this forum is so good!

[wheres my rock]

i agree with DD if i was looking for a trianer because i trial id only use someone who can produce a team that will be successful in the ring

[witheverythingiam]

Yup agree with DD completely.

Also, there's also a stigma with some dog clubs that if you've titled your dog, they automatically think you're going to want to train others as an instructor. I personally think I would SUCK at that, because I'm just not a good teacher. LOL Hey at least I admit it.

-WithEverythingIAm

[Rom]

Yup agree with DD completely.

Also, there's also a stigma with some dog clubs that if you've titled your dog, they automatically think you're going to want to train others as an instructor. I personally think I would SUCK at that, because I'm just not a good teacher. LOL Hey at least I admit it.

-WithEverythingIAm

There's another really good point!

An excellent trialling handler just may not have the ability to pass on their knowledge, but may end up as an instructor because of pressure from the club?

[whatevah]

I only just started trialling in obedience this year. My aim was just for a pass and in 6 trials I got 6 passes and two titles. In Novice I could have done position change and scored more points than the retrieve, but my dog likes the retreive better and keeps him motivated in the ring. What was interesting was that even though we never got a super high score I always had people coming up to me and saying they loved how my dog worked in the ring. They liked his enthusiam. The most important thing to me in the ring is that my dog is happy and working with a wagging tail.

But what I found was at obedience clubs they would put me in a lower class just because I didn't have a title on my dog even though he could do or the exercises. Since my dog has two titles now, I am treated differently which is just rubbish.

At a certain club my dog could do exercises in open!!! But they put us in the second lowest level, where he was doing recalls on a lead!!!!!!!!!! Halfway through I told that I was bored and the dog was bored, then after much discussions and phone calls through the week they let me into a higher class and only because I had passed an instructor course at a different club. They said that they wanted me to learn their "new method" which my other club had been using for 30 years!!!!!!!!!!!!

Another guy was allowed to go straight into a higher class only because he had titled a dog. Just because you don't have a title on your dog doesn't mean he isn't as good or that you don't know what your on about. There are things that I have taught my dogs that they would have no idea about. One of my dogs can do a lot of service dog tasks, and my other dog is trained to do gundog retrieving.

[helen]

Be fair, most people competing are great owners who look after their dogs extremely well!!!

[wheres my rock]

thanks helen

Lets not turn this into a trial bashing session most of the trainers i know have titled a least one dog and all dogs should be capable of gaining novice.

There are plenty of instructors who dont title dogs that are idiots too remember that and at least if a person has managed to title a dog it shows they are at least able to trian to a certain level.

i love my dogs and we train positively we have a lot of fun and trial to see how we are going and to show that it can be done without harsh methods

when joining a new club it is usually the policy to put people a little lower than where they are at as even if your dog can do the exercises you may not be familiar with the finer points the club requires to go to the trial level class. And someone who has titled a dog has already shown they do

[wheres my rock]

They may not be interested in competing

Thast a fair point

*If they do compete, they may not be as serious about winning

you dont need to win to gain a pass only gain a certain score you dontveen have to place

*Some compete for the social outing rather than to win at all costs

as said you dnthave to win and so it is always social

*They may not have the time to put into their own dogs to train them to competition level standards but they really enjoy helping others achieve their goals.

novice level is a well behaved everyone should have time to trian their dog to be well behaved i wouldnt ask for help wit trial work if the person hadnt trialled

*Titles may not be the end goal of their training program. For example, there are no titles to compete for for assistance dogs or guide dogs for the blind, or excellent family pets where manners and loose lead walking are more important than precise heelingAll these dogs would be capable of gaining novice and an assistance dog would definately go further these organisations howeer have their own testing though in the states a few poeple are trialing their self trained assistance dog and one couple their guide dogs

Will compete with injured dogs on pain killers

very few triallers dont put their dogs needs first and those that do are frowned upon by the rest there are plenty of epople at dog club working injured dogs and they dont even know they are because that havent developed that level of understanding

*Believe that the best way to deal with dog aggressive dogs is to put 2 of them together and punish them when they react.

plenty of non trialling instructors belive this too this has nothing to do with triallers

*Believe that the alpha roll is the way to punish a dog for dog aggression

again this is a traditional training thing not a trial thing in fact most riallers are moving way from these methoods these days

*Do not assess the dog before implementing a training program.Actually most trial people haev been around a long time and are very god at assessing a dog one club lodst their triallers through polistics found they also lost the good dog people and were left with inexperinced instructors who couldnt read dogs

*Will write a dog off as a possible obedience competitor without considering that it may need a different training method, meaning that if you have a problem dog and end up in a class instructed by them they will basically tell you to get rid of the dog, or the dog will never be any good.

that also goes both ways plenty of instructors in general write dogs off because they arent simple to train and many trial epople love the challenge of finding new ways to work with different dogs

Most triallers have been around a long time work hard and spend hours trianing studying and learning about dogs we are a very dedicated bunch and are most are always looking for new ideas

Your genralisations are more based arund traditional trainers not just trial people who are more and more moving to mdern training techniques. Maybe youve be unfortunate to meet the wrong trial people

Edited October 9, 2006 by wheres my rock

[jesomil]

I agree with everything wheres my rock has said.

There are lots of great trainers with and without titles.

I personally chose to go for titles because at least that was a way of prooving what levels i have trained dogs to in the past and what i am capable of.

When I was young and wanted to get into dog training a very good trainer said to me to work hard for a couple of years and get an OC on your dog. That way there is always the proof.

I always judge a trainer by their dogs, with or without titles. If they cant do it with their own dogs then they shouldnt be trying to teach others. I see alot of this going on.

[Rom]

I understand and agree with everything said. I don't mean this post to be a bashing session for triallers or their skills, just that titles don't necessarily make good instructors as pointed out....also keeping in mind the adage about the busiest and most successful plumber having leaking taps at home...he's busy cuz he gives excellent service he's in high demand, the fact that he has leaking taps at home is not an indication of his plumbing skills.

[Herr Rottweiler]

This is a valid point that I always pass on to anyone interested in listening.

A trainer should be given merit by the results they can achieve both with the handler and the dog. They should have a good undestanding of all breed charecteristics and behaviours and they should have good working knowledge of all breeds, not just 1 or 2.

There are thousands of good trainers and very few great ones and the old saying says that the enemy of great is good.

[Lablover]

Be fair, most people competing are great owners who look after their dogs extremely well!!!

I agree. In my experience the more competitive owners also look at particular dog breeds (and pedigrees) which suit their endeavours.

[Rom]

This is a valid point that I always pass on to anyone interested in listening.

A trainer should be given merit by the results they can achieve both with the handler and the dog. They should have a good undestanding of all breed charecteristics and behaviours and they should have good working knowledge of all breeds, not just 1 or 2.

There are thousands of good trainers and very few great ones and the old saying says that the enemy of great is good.

I like this HR!

[wheres my rock]

I agree. In my experience the more competitive owners also look at particular dog breeds (and pedigrees) which suit their endeavours.

not me apart from the sheltie ive always looked at the more obscure obedience propects and risen to the challenge

[Rom]

I agree. In my experience the more competitive owners also look at particular dog breeds (and pedigrees) which suit their endeavours.

not me apart from the sheltie ive always looked at the more obscure obedience propects and risen to the challenge

I bet your training style is very flexible and that you probably have a better ability to read dogs for having taken this track! I feel that this experience would have given you a very different view on training issues. Good onya!

[wheres my rock]

for me dog trianing is about challenging myself im always trying new things and experimenting to find what works best for me. at the moment i ave a fox terrier pup that is very independent had no socialisation we got her at 16 weeks and was still running wit litter mates in a kennel only human contact was when she was fed. this has oened a whole new set of problems

im aiming to eventually have several breeds from each ankc group to the highest level i can in obedience tracking and what ever else they can do heidi the foxie will be doing earthdog forinstance im a big beleiver in giving dogs oulets to use there natural desire.

however im a crap instrucor i forget that not everyone will put in the time i do

not everyone has the timing i do and not everyone has has the foundations i have taught mine so if i takea higher class they hate it coz i go back to basics focus and distraction training rather than their usual marching up and down they say make them work too hard lol

[Lablover]

I agree. In my experience the more competitive owners also look at particular dog breeds (and pedigrees) which suit their endeavours.

not me apart from the sheltie ive always looked at the more obscure obedience propects and risen to the challenge

Obedience has different standards, some would say, it is easy.

IMHO compared to retrieving trials, it is.

Also if a dog does not have excellent prey drive, great water ethics, sound nerves, excellent memory and be able to mark/see birds well, it is in a way cruel to continue with high expectations.