haven Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 I don't smack my dogs, but there are times I'm tempted with my OH's kelpie. ;) All my training and retraining is done with positive reinforcement. Oh really? What do you do when your dog does something you don't want it to or ignores a known command then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chai Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 I don't smack my dogs, but there are times I'm tempted with my OH's kelpie. All my training and retraining is done with positive reinforcement. Oh really? What do you do when your dog does something you don't want it to or ignores a known command then? Yes, this is a mystery to me to. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Penguin Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 I could never smack my dog, in my eyes its just not the right thing to do, im only 19 but love her waaaay to much to do anything like that do her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 Haven, I don't smack my dogs, I just don't see a place for it in training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 Haven,I don't smack my dogs, I just don't see a place for it in training. That's good but just so that we are clear, I never said anyone did or should smack their dogs. What gets me is when people make lists of what is acceptable and not acceptable in terms of punishment based on human morals and values instead of basing it on each individual dog. People who come regularly to this section of the forum will know this is a real pet hate of mine. My girl couldn't care less if I smacked her, nor does she care about positive punishment from a training device like a correction chain and yet she finds being ignored or removed from the 'pack' highly aversive. So which is crueller/kinder/more appropriate? In the wild positive punishment is the norm and negative punishment in the form of exclusion is certain death. Domestic dogs use a great deal of positive punishment and negative reinforcement and yet many humans declare their use in training 'BAD' without really understanding or considering the principles behind them or their uses. Like I said, I'm yet to see one dog squirt another with a spray bottle, I've also never seen one dog offer another a treat or toy to reward good behaviour. Don't think for a second that I'm saying to beat the crap out of your dogs and not use reward based training because that is NOT what I am about. It's just the anthrapamorphisim that I can't stand and the blanket ban on using one style of training or form of punishment without consideration for each individual dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 Haven, thanks for the reply, I shouldn't have replied. My pet hate is the thought of a 3 month old pup being smacked. Also in your earlier post, How would a person know if the dog\pup truly knows the command and is ignoring the handler? (I not taliking about experienced dog trainers I'm talking about the average reader). Another one of my pet hates...lol. Let's get back to the topic although the OP looks long gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsD Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 That's good but just so that we are clear, I never said anyone did or should smack their dogs. What gets me is when people make lists of what is acceptable and not acceptable in terms of punishment based on human morals and values instead of basing it on each individual dog. People who come regularly to this section of the forum will know this is a real pet hate of mine. My girl couldn't care less if I smacked her, nor does she care about positive punishment from a training device like a correction chain and yet she finds being ignored or removed from the 'pack' highly aversive. So which is crueller/kinder/more appropriate? In the wild positive punishment is the norm and negative punishment in the form of exclusion is certain death. Domestic dogs use a great deal of positive punishment and negative reinforcement and yet many humans declare their use in training 'BAD' without really understanding or considering the principles behind them or their uses. Like I said, I'm yet to see one dog squirt another with a spray bottle, I've also never seen one dog offer another a treat or toy to reward good behaviour. Don't think for a second that I'm saying to beat the crap out of your dogs and not use reward based training because that is NOT what I am about. It's just the anthrapamorphisim that I can't stand and the blanket ban on using one style of training or form of punishment without consideration for each individual dog. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 I don't smack my dogs, but there are times I'm tempted with my OH's kelpie. All my training and retraining is done with positive reinforcement. Oh really? What do you do when your dog does something you don't want it to or ignores a known command then? Yes, this is a mystery to me to. Me three! Don't you mean you train with positive reinforcement and negative punishment, Bloss? Otherwise how do you discourage unwanted behaviour, like jumping up for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 And if we are talking about the pups perspective, I've seen dogs threaten and punish eachother by staring, growling, body slamming and even throwing the other to the ground and standing over them with mouth over throat........but I've never seen one dog squirt another with a spray bottle. Now that is the most sensible answer I have read so far in this thread! Daniel, there are some dog that are just naturally timid of animals that appear larger and scarier to them i.e. you! I have a cat that has never been smacked but she had also never lived with a man until she was 5 years old. She is petrified of my brothers! When they came to visit she runs and hides and will not come out until they are gone! She is still like this to this day and she is 9 years old. She is fine with my husband though but he is a gentler man then my brothers. My brothers walk heavy and talk loudly. Even one of my Pugs will bark like crazy at them for the first few minutes but they are not like this with any women. Always be aware of your body language around them. Get down to their level so you don't appear so big. Carry small treats with you to give them and play with them whenever you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 My pet hate is the thought of a 3 month old pup being smacked. I agree, I find it abhorrent when I hear the old "training advice" from people who think they know what they are talking about, like smack your puppy over the nose with a rolled up newspaper, rub their nose in it if they toilet in the house, punish your dog after the fact for digging/chewing etc because they look guilty when you come home and 'know they did something wrong' To the OP if you are still around, as someone said earlier in the thread the best way to deal with puppies is to teach them appropriate behaviours and outlets for their natural tendancies (to chew, dig etc) and praise for it, instead of waiting until they do something that you don't like and punishing them for it. Be aware that to the puppy their behaviour is never 'wrong' or 'bad', they are just exploring their surroundings. If you don't want them exploring your shoes, electrical cords etc keep them out of your dogs reach. Smacking your dogs all the time for every little transgression will certainly not be bond building! Agree with what Puggles said about some dogs being naturally more timid than other which may or may not be the case here. Often I find that people confuse their dogs natural submissive behaviours with fear which again may or may not be the case here. I recommend you take your dogs to a reputable training club. Training with your dog is great for bond building, fun for both of you and someone who is qualified and experienced can see exactly the behaviours you are talking about and help you learn more about how to read and understand your dog, how to deal with behaviours you don't want and how to make the most of your relationship. Oh and as an added bonus (as if the above benefits are not enough) you end up with a well trained dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zia's Nuthouse Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 good points. Anrthramorphism, can be argued in many more forms than training however. If you want to use the squirt bottle, or treats or smacking as an example thats fine but what about other things??? No a dog does not squirt another dog with a bottle, no they don't get treats either in the wild. The list is endless... Dogs don't get groomed in the wild. Dogs don't get toys in the wild. Dogs don't get prepared BARF in the wild. They don't get flea'd, or vaccinated or wormed. They don't have blankies and trampoline beds either. I could go on and on. If we can argue and relate about Anthramorphosising, then lets at least agree on the fact that the points are endless, and just not related to smacking, and training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 good points. Anrthramorphism, can be argued in many more forms than training however.If you want to use the squirt bottle, or treats or smacking as an example thats fine but what about other things??? No a dog does not squirt another dog with a bottle, no they don't get treats either in the wild. The list is endless... Dogs don't get groomed in the wild. Dogs don't get toys in the wild. Dogs don't get prepared BARF in the wild. They don't get flea'd, or vaccinated or wormed. They don't have blankies and trampoline beds either. I could go on and on. If we can argue and relate about Anthramorphosising, then lets at least agree on the fact that the points are endless, and just not related to smacking, and training. Er...okay, but the list of things you provided are usually done out of necessity and not because people place human morals and values on their dogs. And besides, dogs are groomed in the wild, they do have toys, eat a BARF diet and obviously don't get vaccinations and beds becasue they are um wild dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 Plus... I think you missed the point Zia. I was agreeing with the fact that dogs reprimand and teach each other (ie. mum to her pup) by far harsher methods then a human 'smacking' a dog. When a dog wants to say to another dog - "I am the alpha and that bloody bowl of food is MINE!" he sure isn't going to sweet talk the other dog. PLease - before anyway even dares to suggest it - I am NOT saying that we should walk around biffing our dogs but, in my view, little children and dogs need the occassional smack to get the point across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsdog2 Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 I might have missed it somewhere but has anyone asked Daniel who feeds the dogs? If you want your dogs to love you, you should be the one feeding them. Whoever has the job of feeding a dog always has a special place in their hearts - or should I say "belly" . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloss344 Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 Don't you mean you train with positive reinforcement and negative punishment, Bloss? Otherwise how do you discourage unwanted behaviour, like jumping up for example? Yes, that was what I meant, an unwanted behaviour such as jumping up is ignored, I turn away and don't look at the dog, rather than kneeing the dog in the chest. Obviously I would use a verbal reprimand such as 'NO' if what the dog's are doing is unacceptable or dangerous, or ignoring a known command. My original comment wasn't very clear. My main aim of the comment was to show the OP that there are other ways of disciplining and training rather than smacking, and that we can all be tempted to smack when our dog's are naughty, rather than badger him for saying he smacked his dog. I wasn't very clear in my intention, I should have read my post through before sending it, or not bother posting when I'm having a vague day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 or not bother posting when I'm having a vague day. Lol if I did that you might never see me again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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