Why Do Dogs Escape?

[Choppa Chop]

*Stands up and applaudes Spikespuppy*

[Livi]

Out of curiosity, do you leave your gates open when you are home J O ??

[Teebs]

Sunny - he doenst need gates! His dog stays at home without needing fences

[Jefe's owners]

Yes, you have trained him well and he is a credit to your dedication

Not only mine.

.... but don't EVER delude yourself into thinking that he would never ever wander off without you...... he would. Why??? Because he's a dog and he has a small brain that doesn't require much thinking.... so he will follow his instincts, nose... whatever.... should the situation present itself. ..... and that WON'T make you a bad owner if it happens..... it'll just make Jefe exactly what he is.... a dog.

I'm sorry, but I really do think that it makes me a bad owner... as I failed to prevent the situation. The way I see it, he's now my responsability and anything that happens to him I'm responsible for.

Touche on the example of the car crashing the fence... I really don't know how what the dog's reaction would be, other than being scared as hell. I have to accept that things happen. However, that is an extreme example, and a statistic anomaly...

SpikesPuppy, I've had many dogs before. I've had a dog stolen and never saw him again. And I know how heartbreaking it is when they get old or get sick beyond help... and when that happened I took the best decision for them, and I was there hugging them until their last breath. and I hope I'm there for Jefe as well.

Dogs can live 10 years or more... humans live 70 or more... you do the math... your heart will break many times. That will pass.

Edited October 7, 2006 by Jefe's owners

[Teebs]

So when my 10 year old dog gets sick in the head and isnt himself, i should just PTS? Who cares that he is still happy and healthy, but a bit silly?

For someone who has owned a lot of dogs, you know shit about them

[Freckles]

Dogs live can 10 years or more... humans live 70 or more... you do the math... your heart will break many times. That will pass.

I'm sorry the pain might ease but I'm sure I'm not alone when I say it NEVER passes.

[Livi]

JO all any of us can do is out BEST.

We love our dogs, we secure our yards, we train our dogs to a level we are happy with and which prevents them causing nuisance to others.

When things go wrong while we are responsible it doesn't make us bad or inadequate, it makes us human and the dog a dog.

Negligence is one thing, but your theory goes way over that and into the ridiculous.

[Cordelia]

QUOTE(Cordelia @ 7th Oct 2006 - 06:47 PM)

He died last year after busting THROUGH the colourbond fence and severing his jugular on the edge of it. Are you honestly saying that he had bad owners????

No, I'm saying it a trainning problem, separation anxiety as you mentioned. Whether I think they are bad owners is not relevant to this.

Installing a 10K fencing system deals with the simptom (running away), not the cause (separation anxiety, bitch in season, what ever it is).

For the 100th time, is not about being bad owners, is about training.

Ok.... I am going to catagorically state that you know NOTHING about true seperation anxiety if you believe that training in drive (or any other singular method any trainer may be spouting at the time) is a cure all for ensuring a dog stays home.

Honestly..... give it up.... don't change your opinion, fine.... but JUST because you have read some books and had lessons with K9 force and you love training in drive and so does Jefe and it works FOR YOU.... does NOT even come close to giving you a decent level of knowledge or understanding of more complex issues and behaviours involved in a dogs psyche. Luckily, you have a very easy, exceptionally good natured dog to train who had very few issues from the start.

Believe it or not (and regardless of what you've been told) training in drive is NOT the be all and end all of training and it DOES NOT work for every dog.

Edited October 7, 2006 by Cordelia

[Kavik]

And I am sure K9 would be the first to tell you training in drive does not work for every dog.

Some dogs can escape from almost anything. At two vets I worked at, the same Beagle came in. He could open any type of cage they had at the vet. He had to be tied to the back of the cage and the door completely wired shut or he would get out.

[Choppa Chop]

Your ridiculous little opinion has been noted JO .......

But you're still an idiot.

[Teebs]

:D

[Jefe's owners]

Ok.... I am going to catagorically state that you know NOTHING about true seperation anxiety if you believe that training in drive (or any other singular method any trainer may be spouting at the time) is a cure all for ensuring a dog stays home.

Please, please, please! tell me, when or where have I said that training in drive would be the solution for separation anxiety?

Separation anxiety is a behavioural problem, that must be dealt accordingly, different training techniques must be employed in this case. A dog behaviourist might be able to shed some light on how to deal with it... but I have never said training in drive is the solution do S.A.

I have said however, that training in drive would work with any dog. All you have to do is find the right drive to train the dog in. I might be wrong, so please correct me if that is the case. But behaviour problems are a totally different set of training issues that might need different training technique. Still a training issue none the less

I've had it. I did not disrespect anyone until now. there's so much abuse im willing to take. I'll take my little opinion and I'm still an idiot. But I will not abuse anyone.

Edited October 7, 2006 by Jefe's owners

[Teebs]

Ok.... I am going to catagorically state that you know NOTHING about true seperation anxiety if you believe that training in drive (or any other singular method any trainer may be spouting at the time) is a cure all for ensuring a dog stays home.

Please, please, please! tell me, when or where have I said that training in drive would be the solution for separation anxiety?

Separation anxiety is a behavioural problem, that must be dealt accordingly, different training techniques must be employed in this case. A dog behaviourist might be able to shed some light on how to deal with it... but I have never said training in drive is the solution do S.A.

I have said however, that training in drive would work with any dog. All you have to do is find the right drive to train the dog in. I might be wrong, so please correct me if that is the case. But behaviour problems are a totally different set of training issues that might need different training technique.

I've had it.

:D

[Kavik]

If you are talking about training in drive the way K9 Force does, he generally uses it to mean training in prey drive. If the dog does not have enough prey drive, this training will not work. It will also not work (or certainly not as well) if the dog is older and its prey drive has been suppressed through other training.

[Choppa Chop]

Is not NINE pages correction enough ??

:D

[Jefe's owners]

Out of curiosity, do you leave your gates open when you are home J O ??

Not on purpose. It has happened twice. Once we were at home, once we weren't.

[Livi]

OK and because your dog was there when you got back/noticed you feel it is because he is better trained ?

I have also once come home to an open gate, I was almost having a panic attack before I even got the car door open and out strolled my dog to say hello/welcome home.

I don't know why, certainly wasn't trained not to run off and possibly had been for a stroll and fortunately got back home safe before we did

I've also had a situation where OH accidentally let dog out and panicked and yelled at the dog who panicked and bolted.

Again fortunately he got home safe (thanks to a local shopkeeper who knew he was missing and my OH's life as he knew it was on the line if he wasn't found or was hurt).

I don't feel any more or less of a dog owner due to either circumstance.

Edited October 7, 2006 by sunny70

[Cordelia]

QUOTE(Cordelia @ 7th Oct 2006 - 08:38 PM)

Ok.... I am going to catagorically state that you know NOTHING about true seperation anxiety if you believe that training in drive (or any other singular method any trainer may be spouting at the time) is a cure all for ensuring a dog stays home.

Please, please, please! tell me, when or where have I said that training in drive would be the solution for separation anxiety?

Separation anxiety is a behavioural problem, that must be dealt accordingly, different training techniques must be employed in this case. A dog behaviourist might be able to shed some light on how to deal with it... but I have never said training in drive is the solution do S.A.

I have said however, that training in drive would work with any dog. All you have to do is find the right drive to train the dog in. I might be wrong, so please correct me if that is the case. But behaviour problems are a totally different set of training issues that might need different training technique. Still a training issue none the less

I've had it. I did not disrespect anyone until now. there's so much abuse im willing to take. I'll take my little opinion and I'm still an idiot. But I will not abuse anyone.

You have said that training can and will prevent a dog from escaping..... you didn't take into account that there may be many more complex issues involved in WHY a dog escapes.

Training in drive will NOT work with every dog... or with every owner so please... stand corrected on that. Finding the right drive (prey, food, play etc) isn't always as easy as you seem to think it is.

My Great Dane is well trained and has excellent recall.... she has drive ONLY when she can compete with my Labrador and ONLY then for a short period of time before she goes off for a snooze. Push her past the point where she switches off and she'll go into melt down. She is very soft and pushing her (even gently) causes her to shut down, lay down and renders her unable to learn anything. Training in drive DOES NOT work for her.

You are basing your experiences on a dog who is young, has good drive and focus and YOU are highly motivated to train in this way. You HAVE said that ANY dog can be trained in drive.... without additional knowledge of specific canine behaviours rendering those drives useless or non-existant... your blanket statements simply aren't correct!

I have not abused you or disrespected you in any way. You are giving advise/your opinion as fact and people have been correcting you all along with their own experiences etc and they DO have a great deal more experience than you in both training AND behavioural aspects of canine behaviour.

QUOTE(sunny70 @ 7th Oct 2006 - 07:45 PM)

Out of curiosity, do you leave your gates open when you are home J O ??

Not on purpose. It has happened twice. Once we were at home, once we weren't.

Honestly.... if Jefe was still home when the gates were left open..... he simply didn't have the motivation or the drive to leave.

Actually.... you haven't actually said if he did leave or not. How long was the gate open on those occasions? and if you weren't home... how do you know he didn't wander off for a while??

[Dog Logics]

Training a dog 'In Drive' be it prey drive, toy drive or food drive is a means of giving a dog such a high that training and learning become the dogs focus because it's rewarding both mentally, emotionally and physically. However, it will not work on every dog much will depend on the dogs previous life and learning history, age and health both mental and physical.

Drive which is instigated by the owner provides if you like an 'alpha' roll...all good things happen when the Boss is around.

If you are dealing with behavioral problems such as Separation Anxiety, Storm or thunder phobia then the dog is controlled by his emotional state and is not capable of learning at the time of stress. This is classed as Classical Conditioning. :D

An example of Classical Conditioning could be the sound of the dentist drill causes you to become agitated....you have no control over these responses. Therefore, in Classical Conditioning behavior is autonomous, reactive to stimuli, usually emotionally triggered, and uncontrollable.

If a dog is escaping due to Classical Conditioning it can be very distressing for both the dog and the owner and is not always fixable. Behavior modification by desensitizing may help and adequate containment is vital. Dogs will escape because they are bored and roaming will reward the behavior in so many ways - other dogs to play with, people, nice smelly bins or road kill, the smell of other dogs walked in the area and so on all of which are going to be far more interesting than hours spent in a boring back yard.

Owners should ensure they have fencing adequate for their breed some breeds are very good at climbing so in some instances mesh or wire would not be suitable, others will dig so the fence needs to be buried or a concrete pen used for containment. Gates need to be self shutting and locked in the owners absence preferable dogs should be contained to the rear of the house so that there is little reason for visitors to open gates entering the rear of the property when there is access to the front door.

Hope this has shed some light on what appears to be a rather over heated topic.

[Freckles]

Quoted from K9 Force himself:

I use prey drive for a lot of obedience, sport & bitework, it's a high energy drive that can, in the right dog, be channeled very effectively to gain outstanding results.

The requirements are good nerves, good prey drive & very little in the way of fear based issues...

Training in drive isnt for couch potatoes be it people or dogs, it takes a lot of physical activity & you have to be committed to carry out the complete program if you want complete results.

So JO you asked to be corrected if you are wrong YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ETA link to K9Forces thread

Edited October 7, 2006 by Freckles