Advice And Opinions Wanted On Mastering The Sit/stay

[rdr71]

We are trying to grade out of our current grade at training, and keep failing the stability elements.

Granted I do not have as much time as I would like or need to do this with Sasha (14mths goldie) as i have 2 little skin kids who need training more!!!

BUT I am doing my best to practice stability with Sasha but what is the best thing to do when she gets up - do i start the process all over again - put her bum back down and repeat sit, stay - how do i get her to understand that she HAS to stay till i say so!?

Thanks in advance

Ruth and Sasha

[shekhina]

Hi Ruth

In class we're told that if the dog breaks the stay to growl, get infront of them right away and put them straight back into position. If they break again put them back into position again without talking to them.

If you start the exercise all over again, that is, you walk the dog back around to put it in position the dog thinks what it did was alright and you're just starting over. Sasha needs to realise moving is wrong and she's not going to get anywhere for it.

[Mornir]

hehehehe beat me too it Shekky.

And this is the little bunny that got told off for returning to her dog and setting him up again oops!

[Mornir]

oh, would like to add that you really don't have to spend much time with it. I work on the sit, stand or drop stay twice a day and it takes me less than a minute for both dogs.

I have dog on left hand side, ask for a sit, tell the dog stay. Move off on right foot, take a few paces forward and put their food bowl down. Return to the dog and then release the dog from the stay :D DOg dashes forward to eat his breakfast/tea!

Initially it might take a bit longer because the dog will no doubt break the stay. But as long as he already has a fair idea of what is expected of him (ie. what you do in class), then I bet he will cotton on really quick. My two have. I have even stepped up to doing my recalls this way.

I know, I'm a mean mummy

[Rusky]

baby steps

reward for one thing at a time

count in seconds by your side till you have a perfect row of 5....... 5 second stays

then pivot to just in front till you have a perfect row of 5... 5 second stays

reward all the time with praise or food or pats.

Increase the time in 5 second then 10 second sessions.

always set the dog up to win so if he breaks go back to where the stay was perfect.

I mean you may already have a minute so work from that.

If you have a minute away at distance then return reward, feed, praise, repeat command and leave for another 10 seconds and so on.

Edited September 19, 2006 by Rusky

[RealityBites]

I have cues for the dog, so I don't actually use the word 'stay'. i.e the dog sits, I say 'YES!" so he knows that's what I wanted, then he has a release word which is 'OK" which means that excercise is finished. I started teaching stay by using meal times too,

[whatevah]

I agree with Rusky. With my dogs have never had a major problem with stays. Firstly if I am working on time, I will keep the same distance, if I am working on distance I will keep to the same time. Never increase both at the same time. I build up the stays in small increments. If my dog fails a stay, it is my fault because I made it too hard for him. So I will then go back a step, either in time or distance. I always finish on a good stay. I never want my dog to fail more than two stays in a row because then it becomes a habit. I never yell or grumble at him because I don't want him to become nervous about stays. At the moment I am working up to a 3 minute out of sight sit stay. He can do a 5 minute out of sight down stay very easily. So I am working up the time on the sit stay, then will work on out of sight. He can do 1 minute out of sight sit stay. We are up to 1min 30 seconds in sight sit stay. I need to work up to 3 minutes out of sight for open. So I am going to keep on working on the in sight till I get up to 3 mins 30, then do out of sight working up from 1min 30. He has a tendency to do puppy sits even if left in a straight sit, so it is physically hard for him.

Hope this all makes sense.

[Lablover]

Depending on the dog and his drive and nerves, some form of SENSIBLE correction MAYBE warranted. Start with short distances. Reward for good responses.

[herding_guy]

Set the dog up to win.

You have obviously taught the sit and now you are teaching the stay in position. Add distraction slowly first then add distance SLOWLY.

[TangerineDream]

Seeing as Tango follows me everywhere... I taught the sit and downstays while on the loo :D

[Rusky]

Seeing as Tango follows me everywhere... I taught the sit and downstays while on the loo

as I always say, every second with your dog is a training opportunity :D

[Livi]

Seeing as Tango follows me everywhere... I taught the sit and downstays while on the loo :D

as I always say, every second with your dog is a training opportunity

that is a classic....I love it :D

[dogdude]

In my opinion, the key to getting reliable stays lies with the dog having being taught focus first. Most dogs fail the exercise because they simply forget what they are doing. When the dog fully understands the exercise, fully proofed, with all the necessary temptations being ignored, I beleive that only then, full focus is no longer required. Some will disagree with this, but it will all depend on what situations you are actually proofing for. This is the most important stage of teaching the exercise, as it will be up to you to forsee what situations the dog may get into under your command while being placed in the stay. (ie; outside the local milkbar unsupervised , mowing the front lawn etc)

The reason that I dont worry too much about full focus later on is because I often put my dog in long stays while mowing the front lawn etc, and I believe that I would be asking too much of the dog for that long, and besides, the dog by then fully understands what is required.

I start to teach the sit stay after focus and sitting. The down stay usually dosn't require any additional training as long as they understand the sit stay. While teaching it I concentrate on distractions before distance, and the only corrections I use are a calm "utt", when the dog breaks, followed by gently placing the dog back into postion. Harsh corrections, especially after gaining distance should be avoided, as this can cause fear every time you return to the dog, very bad for triallers!

One thing that I strongly believe in, is that if you are not adding a new distraction to a dog that understands the exercise every time you train, then you might as well not bother, you are only pattern training the dog and setting it up for future failure.

[rdr71]

thanks for all the replies - i need to sit down and have a think about what works best for me and Sasha.

One question for dogdude - what do youmean in your last sentence - where you say if you dont keep adding new distractions each time you are just setting them up for failure?can u explain that a bit further?

I have been doing sit stays when i feed her for a couple of months now - and have been extending that to drop stays since i posted this. It is hard for me to be consistent which will be my downfall but I just have to grab training opportunities wherever i can - admittedly it hasnt come to while i am on the loo yet!!!

Thanks again i really appreciate having all this to think about!

Ruth and Sasha

[dogdude]

Hi rdr71

If you continually practice your stays without challenging your dogs mind, it becomes highly likely that your dog will be what's referred to as "pattern trained." When the pattern is broken, ie: strange or new situation like other animals coming within close proximity and every other thing that can and will happen, the dog then gets confused and breaks. Pattern trained dogs often tune out because they dont anticipate anything new, and simply get bored out of their brains with the same old, same old.

For trialling dogs for instance, the first thing you would proof against for the sit stay is when single or multiple dogs break the stay and wander over to your dog to sniff or play. When one dog breaks in a trial, it can often cause a domino effect and cause other peoples dogs to break,

and the other pattern trainers will not be impressed with you!

This line of thought goes for practically all exercises, not just the stays. If you train a dog to keep an active mind while working, your problems will be less common.

[rdr71]

thanks dogdude - that all makes great sense. Thats what happened on the weekend at grading - one dog broke the sit stay and Sasha followed.

Is the ultimate aim for the dog to be focused on ME during a stay - or just looking anywhere but awaiting my command?

[dogdude]

Hi rdr71

To answer your question, the focus should be on you. The trouble is that you need to teach focus first, and separately to the stay. The dog will get very confused if trying to teach both within the same exercise.

Focus is the basis for all exercises and is a must. When you think about it, nearly all mistakes made by the dog when learning all relate to focus. There is a big difference between the dog being "wrong" and "choosing" not to do an exercise, and this should be thought about carefully when using corrective type methods during the learning phase of a new exercise. When the dog is simply "wrong", gently show him what is reqired ie: gently placing him back into the sit stay with your hands rather than a rip on the check chain. When you do this, dont repeat the command or the dog will find no need to remember it the first time.

In my opinion, the best advise I could give you is that "wrong is good", the dog is learning something!

[rdr71]

thanks for the advice dogdude - great help!