Raw Feeding Vs Barf

[squeak]

I'm guessing that this topic probably has been done before. It it has, I would be grateful if someone could point me towards the links to the threads.

I'm wanting to change Stormy to a more "natural" diet from the kibble (and bones) that she's getting. But, me being me, want to read all the information first before I make a decision :D I can find heaps of information on BARF, but very little information on "raw feeding", ie., feeding only raw meaty bones/offal, etc, with NO vegies.

I would be very interested to hear from anyone here who has feed totally raw, without vegies - the good, bad and the ugly. The only websites that I can find are very emotional.

Also, I'm just wondering if there are any vets who might specialise in dog nutrition, who I could make an appointment with to get me started???

[Mal]

Check out Dr Lonsdale, he has written two books ‘Raw Meaty Bones' and ‘Work Wonders: Feed your dog raw meaty bones'. There was a write up in the Hawkesbury Gazzette 2 weeks ago and I have heard others speak about him.

I feed BARF so I can't answer your questions or help in any way.

Hope you get answers.

The only vet I know is Billinghurst in Bathurst but he is BARF feeding so I can't help there either.

Edited September 18, 2006 by Mal

[Fastgals]

Hi Squeak,

I feed raw, rather than BARF-style, but have only been feeding this way for 18 months, maybe 2 years (hopeless at keeping track of time). I moved from BARF-style (including veges and some rice) to full 'carnivore-style' mainly for the sake of our oldest grey, who does best on a diet with little or no added extras. Any extras, like grains, veges, most supplements (including fish oil) ultimately upset her stomach if given regularly in any quantity. My other reason for it was an underlying desire to feed fresh, whole foods - like I should eat myself - rather than have my dogs live on a diet of processed or cooked food. I have found our 3 greys do well on a raw diet and absolutely love their food. Healthwise, apart from Girlie not getting constant digestive upsets anymore, I'm not sure I've noticed a whole lot of difference - apart from nice soft, shiny coats (which I believe can be achieved with a premium dry food). In the last 12 months, I have twice had reason to get a full geriatric blood panel done for Girlie, and a basic blood panel for Maggie. Where there was nothing previously wrong with Maggie's levels, there had been with Girlie's - a panel taken nearly 3 years ago after she first came to us at 10 years old. At that time, Girlie was showing definite unbalanced phosphate:calcium levels and a couple of other areas to do with kidney function were borderline. She now shows "unremarkable", average results. To go any further into it nutritionally, I would have to get one of those hair tests done, for vitamin and mineral levels and have never felt there is a need to do so. I feed as varied a diet as I can buy for them, including whole rabbit carcasses (skin on) when I can occasionally get them, and a wide range of offal - it amazes me (as a long-time veg-head) what "bits" you can actually buy :D . So, the good is that a "carnivore-style" diet suits my dogs, they do well on it and are absolutely crazy for their food. Our cats, have always been fed this way. The bad and the ugly: well, that would have to be preparation. Even my omnivore OH sometimes blanches at what he sees me chopping up - I'm banished to the laundry these days. It's amazing how many meat-eating blokes go a bit green when you waft past with a couple of sheeps' heads for the younger greys' dinner .

Having said all that, it doesn't mean my dogs don't get non-meat treats. They are offered vege table-scraps, pizza crust, etc., and dog biccies as treats. They have pretty normal eating habits, I just make sure that their diet is based on one that I believe is the optimum for a carnivore and appropriate to their needs. On the very occasional "junk-food" night, they might have a big slice of eco-pet roll - which is not junk food at all, but tastes as good as!

If you haven't already, you might like to check out the yahoo forum: rawfeeding. There are people on that forum who have been feeding this way since the dawn of time (or so it seems). The rawfeeding archives are an excellent source of information.

For a veg-head, I really love to rabbit on and on and on about dead-animal parts ...

Regards,

Fastgals.

[squeak]

Thanks your the replies - I guess I'm a bit nervous about starting either way - I'm scared that they'll "miss out" on something that should be in their diet. I'm probably also a bit scared if the topic of diet ever comes up with the vet :D One of the main reasons I guess I would like to change her over is for her dental health - she's just past 12 months now, and noticed the start of "ick" on her canines, which I would obviously like to prevent from getting any worse.

[Fastgals]

Squeak,

I was also nervous about removing the veges etc. I did a lot of reading of everything, from these rawfeeding sites (like rawfeddogs), to b-naturals articles, US dietary charts on nutritional values in meats and organs, definitions of carnivore, canine digestion, etc, etc. Even so, I commenced full-on rawfeeding with some trepidation. In an attempt to allay my own paranoia, I even made vege puree for them once a month for the first three months, but the dogs started turning up their noses at it :D . A fabulous substitute for vitamins that dogs may or may not be able to utilise from veges, is the humble egg. I regularly feed raw eggs, and consider these natures vitamin supplement. After a couple of months, I settled down and now only feed veges as a treat. There is one exception: if Girlie does happen to get a stomach upset, the best meal for her is minced lamb, well-cooked white rice, with parsley and green leafy veges (pulped or cooked) stirred through it. I figure the rice acts like a cleanser on the way through and parsley is supposed to be a liver tonic.

Most vets aren't familiar with this type of raw feeding, although if you have a great vet like mine, they'll read up on it in between visits. For instance, Girlie has just been at the vets and when I said that she'd turned up her nose at offal the past week or so, the vet said...."so, her diet's not well balanced at the moment". I was chuffed. Doesn't matter that a week without offal doesn't really hurt - it all balances out over time - just really pleased that he'd obviously looked into the feeding method. Poor, old Girlie has got to the time of life where she can eat whatever she damn well wants to for whatever time she has left. Luckily for me, she still prefers her raw diet to anything else...except a certain dog treat...that dogs go wacko for... .

Regards,

Fastgals.

[Red Mal]

Why do you NOT want to feed veggies. If you are feeding a raw natural diet, you Must feed veggies for a balanced Diet !

A natural diet for a wolf (for instance) would be to kill an animal and to save challenging dogs from geting to the best bits firts, it would eat the stomach as it's the softest to eat quickly (which would contain raw vegetation eaten by the dead animal), then go on to soft muscles and main meat of the animal, then finally the bones to clean the teeth and provide extra nutrients etc.

To understand 'how' to feed BARF you must first understand 'why' dogs benefit from feeding BARF !

[Hazz]

True RedMal that is the very reason us BARFer's puree veg/fruit matter to replicate the eating of the preys stomach.

Fastgals - can I ask you the reason you feed rice ???

Edited September 19, 2006 by Hazz

[Fastgals]

No offence, Red Mal, but this is the whole point of the research I continue to do and that Squeak is obviously doing. Rawfeeders would debate your point re wolves eating stomach contents, due in part to the observations of a US grey wolf expert, David Mech. Observers of wolves in the wild sometimes comment that it's the organs and very meaty bits that seem to be most prized. B-naturals points to the fact that there is no proven requirement by canines for carbohydrates from vegetables. Etc., etc., etc. The addition of veges to a raw diet is certainly quoted as balancing a BARF diet, but there are no such directions for a rawfeeding style diet. The ratios of meat, bone and offal in a rawfeeding diet also differ from those in a BARF diet. Rawfeeders do have an understanding of how dogs can benefit from that style of diet and I presume that's why most of us - BARFers and rawfeeders - do it .

Regards,

Fastgals.

[Fastgals]

True RedMal that is the very reason us BARFer's puree veg/fruit matter to replicate the eating of the preys stomach.

Fastgals - can I ask you the reason you feed rice ???

Of course you can . White rice is included in Girlie's upset stomach recipe. I understand that grains provide no nutritional value to canines, because of their lack of ability to digest them. Rice tends to just pass through. The principle is that in doing so it provides a gentle cleaning of the bowel. Dark leafy vegetables and parsley are included in this mix - for their tonic properties - ie. as herbs. Does the trick for Girlie when she's feeling crook. :D

Regards,

Fastgals.

[wylie]

Hi

There are a number of Rawfeeding groups on Yahoo!!

Tonnes and tonnes of information and helpful advice from them to.

They have lots of links to other sites and types of menus.

Cheers

[ruthless]

Hi,

I just found this link which suggests that feeding grains, supplements and fruit and veg as part of a raw feeding diet are not necessary. Anyone any thoughts on the matter? I'm thinking about making the switch and finding too much information to digest! I like the sound of this but wouldn't want my doggies not to be getting all the nutrition they need.

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

R

[Hazz]

Thanks Fastgals, that is the reason why I asked. But I can understand how it may aid a delicate stomach

I understand that grains provide no nutritional value to canines, because of their lack of ability to digest them. Rice tends to just pass through.

[Hazz]

Ruthless there are many ways of feeding raw diets everyone will have a slightly different method due to what works for their own dogs.

Technically grains provide no nutritional benefit, nor do fruit and veg if they are not prepared properly.

Also some people can go overboard with the supplementation of vits and mins to the point where many have no benefit to the dogs well being.

What I suggest is to do as much research as possible, I advise more books (by actual veterinarians and nutritionists) rather than internet sites and then trial a diet you think will benefit your dog and don't be afraid to ask questions

[ruthless]

thanks Hazz, can you recommend any books? k9 force suggested "The Ultimate Diet" by Kymythy R Shultz...

[wylie]

Hazz

Raw Meaty Bones and Works Wonders are written by an Australian Vet!!

He has a huge following around the world.

[Hazz]

Lonsdale and Billinghurst also have books on the subject

[O-Ren]

In the end the best meal is the one that your dog performs best on!

but for the record... O-Ren's coat and teeth and enuthusiasm for meals improved +++ when on a raw meat/bones diet- she wouldnt eat vegies unless they were cooked and mixed in, which defeats the purpose of barf

[bloss344]

Dogs can derive nutrients from grains. They don't need grains but if well cooked they can in fact benefit from them. Sometimes grains are useful, especially for dogs who don't hold weight well and need more dense calories. Grains can also be protein sparing, where an owner for whatever reason may not want to feed as much protein.

If dogs didn't benefit from grains in a balanced diet then my 2 would be in a sorry state. Ultimately it comes down to the best diet for your dog, whether it be canned, bagged, raw, with or without bones, with or without grains or cooked, is what your dog does best on. They are all individual and so have individual needs.

JMHO

[biker girl]

I've been feeding a raw diet now for over 11 yrs & my furkids are doing really well. So much so that they only see our vet once a year for their vaccs. The other day I rang my vet to make an appointment (for an ET health check) I made the appointment with the nurse AND 5 mins latter my vet actually rang back to see what the problem with "his boy" was :D I took that as a compliment

[Jed]

The problem with some diets is that the phosphorous / calcium ratio is unbalanced. Dogs, being omnivores, and pretty tough, will get by for a while, but often problems appear from middle age onwards.

Meat only is not a balanced ration.

There is a lot of information out there - some of it conflicting, and you really need to do some serious research if you mean to feed a raw diet (whether BARF or not) - if you find something you like, check out the author, check out any other information you can find, and go from there.

And, as Hazz says, it is better to read books than go on internet sites. Some of the stuff on net sites isn't worth a pinch of snuff, but it LOOKS ok - specially if you aren't an expert on the subject.

If you are getting it wrong, it will probably look right for years!

Fruit and vegs need to be put through the processor/juicer to break down the cellulose to allow the dog's digestive system to attack them and get the nutrients from them.

If you feed too much fruit/veges, or too much rice or grains, it will become apparent over a period of months, as the dog loses condition.

The diets Ian Billinghurst recommends have been tried and tested for years, without any major problems apprearing - so BARF should be pretty safe. But, stick to what he recommends, if you aren't sure.