Training The Sooky, Soft, Low-drive Dog

[JulesP]

There is lots of info around on training the bouncy, hypo type dogs but I am having trouble finding info on the super-soft sooky dogs.

The dog school I go to is totally into the food reward, postive type training. Whilst pup likes food, he really isn't that fussed about his treats. I make sure I have very good treats too! So I assume that he doesn't have a high food drive.

I've tried toys and again he will have a polite game but there is not much care factor.

He has a slight prey drive but it is still very easy to control him whilst he is in prey drive. i.e. pony foal going nuts in the paddock and galloping around, pup didn't chase. Doesn't chase birds or the cats. Likes to lick and chew the cats but doesn't really chase them.

I am finding it really hard to get him motivated and energetic at dog school. I skip around and try and razz him up but it doesn't really work.

Any sort of correction really upsets him. Basically all he wants to do is be cuddled and have his tummy rubbed! The thing he shows most enthusiasm for is killing pot plants and digging!!

Ummm and this is a border collie! Everyone thinks I have the best behaved dog and as a pet he is super to have around. But I want to trial him. Whilst training the recall today he lay down and went to sleep! He is 7mo btw, is healthy and is fed a premium/barf combinatination.

Help!

[ReXy]

altho it sounds as though you have the best behaved dog..lol he sounds very sweet, i can see how it could be a problem too..lol .. hopefully some experienced trainers here may be able to give u some tips..

[TollaBC]

Hey there Jules i cant help you but i just wanted to say i am looking forward to any responses you may get as you have just described my border collie fully! Good luck with everything.

[Erny]

Whilst your dog may not have high prey drive, it sounds like he might have good pack drive. Build up on pack drive. Make your contact with him worth something (ie a reward). NILIF program (ie no freebies). Avoid overdoing the pats/attention unless it relates in some way to his training. Make contact with you something special and something for which he needs to work.

Edited September 17, 2006 by Erny

[TangerineDream]

If cuddles is what turns him on, then cuddles should be his reward, but for a time, only when he does something that you ask him to do, not because he climbs up on your lap for a cuddle.

If I'm teaching Tango something new, even though he's usually a bouncy (5' up in the air) kind of dog, I've found that slow, gentle head cuddles are his favoured reward at early stages of learning an exercise, as he can be uncertain and a bit nervy if he doesn't understand what you want...this sort of thing might work with your pup, you know the sort of thing.....the caressing hand under the chin, draw the head up along your leg, look deep into the eyes and croon in a singsong voice."goooood pup" - this also helps with reinforcing the pups focus on you......

Edited September 17, 2006 by TangerineDream

[ness]

Have PM'd you.

Ness

[dasha]

You have also described my Border Collie to a tee. I tried to train mine for obedience as well and it was hard I will tell you. Mine doesn't have good food drive either but I found that he didn't mind Cabanossi.

He preferred to hear the words good boy and get a pat for his reward as well. You need to find a time that he is in a joyful mood like when he first sees you in the morning and when ever he is excited and jolly you need to make a fuss of him. Find a game that he likes or something that you do that makes him happy. I used to tease him with the food or toy and he only got it if he tried to get it enthusiastically (like snapping for it) or holding in it in your closed palm and not letting him get it until he pawed at it or did more than licking. But the whole time I had to pretend that I was trying to stop him and laugh and stuff and try to push him (gently) away and when he persisted he got it. It was like I had to trick him into wanting the food. He now had food drive (not great but he will now work for food)

It will work but it is hard work to do. It is very hard to motivate a dog that isn't interested.

It is important that you don't correct him in his training. I found that as mine had low drive he was also very sensitive to me. If I sighed after trying working on something he would just freeze and lose interest totally. So you need to reward him for the effort not the result.

I also found mine improved by teaching him little tricks that didn't involve hard work. Like paw, and simple stuff like play dead. He is also lazy so to him heeling for 10 metres wasn't worth the effort for a piece of food. So by building his confidence with little things I could get him to heel from the sit for 1 step and if he stepped of in a spritely manner he got a good boy and some food.

You need to make him think that the game is trying to get the food from you not doing a task. Once he gets the hang of taking foor you start asking for more before the opportunity yo take the food presents itself.

I hope thi isn't to scattered for you but it is hard to describe what you do sometimes.

[Erny]

Have you tried backing down on your dog's meals .... so he's a bit hungrier for the treats. And, as Dasha has suggested, try a variety of treats to see if there is a favourite amongst them. And give him 'easy wins' at first (eg. get him to do things he knows well), to strengthen his enthusiasm and motivation to work.

I took your word for it that your dog has "low prey drive" and if that definately proves to be the case, I would stand by my first post to you regarding building up on pack drive, as that is what you seem to have.

My girl (recently passed, bless her) was low in prey as well. The kindest and most honest soul you'd ever come across (IMO - of course, bias plays a part there ) and her most favourite thing was being around me. Must say I NEVER had any recall problems/issues EVER.

[JulesP]

Thanks everyone. You have given me some things to try.

He doesn't get breakfast before dog school so he should be a bit hungry. I was using frankfurts yesterday. One problem I am having with the food is he is convinced that he has to sit for food and that he can't budge. I haven't over trained this so not sure what is going on. It makes it hard to lure your pup for heeling etc when they keep trying to sit. I spent ages last week trying to get him to follow food and he is but very, very slowly. Any ideas on this?

[BrunoBella]

I used to occasionally have trouble with Bella as she is very soft as well. When I was teaching her a trick and she didn't get it I said "Let's try that again" in my happy sing-song voice and that stopped her from feeling despondent about not getting it right. Also stopped me accidentally giving out negative vibes.

I also overtrained Bella on not jumping up from a sit. I just use my excited voice to get her to move

[noisymina]

Interesting subject!

I thought I was alone with the original sook.

I hope this is not a hijack - rather an extension of the subject .........................

My Dobe has this thing about stuff - it's ok 'til it "bites" her, the I've no chance of getting her back to it.

An example - I had a hoop that she was jumping through for me. All went well for a while and she was going through it fine, gardually getting a bit higher - nothing she could not handle. Then, one day, she misjudged, and caught a back leg as she went through. It didn't hurt her as I let go of the hoop. I don't think it should have been a problem.

But, from that day on, she would not go anywhere near it - even if it was resting on a wall in the house, she would give it wide berth, or refuse to go past it. I left it around for ages hoping she would get over it and eventually gave up! This has happened with other things as well.

Any ides?

[Erny]

One problem I am having with the food is he is convinced that he has to sit for food and that he can't budge. ... It makes it hard to lure your pup for heeling etc when they keep trying to sit.

Get him to heel just two steps (or even one, if you're having that much trouble) .... and give him the treat. Use the lead a little for the first one or two goes, just to help him grasp the idea of the action that will get him the reward. Reward him for approximate behaviour (at least, not sitting but moving) and continue to reward him for improvements that continue to grow closer to what you actually want. Of course, don't forget verbal encouragement. Also, try not turning and looking at him too much - your body language could be acting as a 'blocker' to the forward movement you're actually after.

The mere fact your dog is sitting to get his treat indicates he is at least motivated by them. It sounds to me that he's worked out in his mind what it is that gets him the treats, and that it isn't yet clear to him the new skills you're trying to achieve.

Edited September 18, 2006 by Erny

[BrunoBella]

Noisymina

Start at the beginning again. Sit next to the hoop and feed her treats, then maybe use it for the Touch command, then start the jumping training again.

I often have this problem with Bella but I can always get past it with patience and persistance. It took me months to get her to jump into her water filled shelled now she leaps in from a distance. :D

It does slow down training but that's what you get with sooky dogs They are also very loving :D

I also use pack drive now I have Bruno who is afraid of nothing, I will get him to do whatever is the problem and give him treats. Doesn't take long for Bella to follow.

Have fun

ETA: Erny snuck in the middle

Edited September 18, 2006 by BellasPerson

[Erny]

I had a hoop ... caught a back leg ... from that day on, she would not go anywhere near it - Any ides?

Try leaving it on the ground and putting her dinner bowl (with food) in its centre. If she's become REALLY scared of approaching it, then you can have the dinner bowl on the outside of the hoop and gradually work in.

There is another way, and although I write it here I don't put it out as a suggestion for you to do as I have no way of knowing how big the fear your dog has developed to this, nor of your dog's liklihood towards reactivity. It is similar to how I have encouraged dogs to go through a tunnel (eg tyre). I have taken the dog and placed it as close to one side of the tyre as I could without the dog going into a total freak out. The dog's lead (a longer one than usual is preferable) is passed through the tyre. The owner takes the lead and calls/encourages the dog (with food/toy/voice) to go through. My job is to make sure the dog can't get to his owner by going around the tyre. In otherwords, the dog MUST make the decision to go through the tyre to reach its owner. Without fail, once a dog has made this decision, there is no looking back. Note that I do not push, force or shove the dog into the tunnel space - it must be his own decision. It's worked EVERY time for me.

The danger will be for the assistant who is holding/blocking the dog's escape from going around the tyre/tunnel (in your case, the hoop). If the assistant does not have the knowledge of reading dogs behaviours and understanding the limits of thresholds, it could result in the dog using its teeth to beseech its escape.

If you make the decision to do this particular exercise, and if your dog is REALLY spooked, try reaching your hand forward and feed a treat through the tyre/hoop. Do it again, but bring your hand in closer to you, so he/she needs to poke a nose through to reach it .... progress until he/she begins to understand the hoop won't bite.

You MUST make sure the hoop is big enough for the dog to move through with ease.

You MUST make sure that someone can assist to hold the hoop steady.

And if you get back to him/her being able/willing to jump through, ALWAYS make sure the dog's approach is directly straight on. Otherwise serious injury can occur.

ETA: You could also put the hoop flat down on the ground in a space where there is no choice other than to walk over it. Eg. Front door entrance, where you exit to go off for a walk (assuming your dog likes to go for walks).

Another ETA - and this one counts for everyone to note: If your dog is or has become 'sooky' or scared over something, avoid inadvertently reinforcing the sooky/scared behaviour.

Edited September 18, 2006 by Erny

[RealityBites]

I have both dogs! The high drive 'bang my head against a wall with' type, and the 'OMG you growled at me I am going to pee everywhere' type dog!! With my sooky dobe he does best with food, but I 'play' with the food the same way I would with a toy, i.e he has to chase it in my hand and THEN I give a command, this gets him quite excited about it, instead of just passively handing over pieces of food. This might help with the pup that is sitting automatically, if you put some 'life' into the food for him he might be more excited about chasing it and not thinking about sitting all the time.

[Lablover]

I still believe one needs to take a fast dog, slow and a slow dog fast - disclaimer - depends of the dog too.

Your dog sounds, and forgive me if I am wrong, worried at obedience school and in reality it is the worst place for your dog to be at the present time.

How much do you practice, slowly introducing distractions off site IN SAFE AREAS. Eyes in the back of your head type places.

Do you baby him along? Do you expect him to pay attention during the whole class, especially during endless question times? Do you have a start word and release word when you expect your dogs attention?

[JulesP]

Yes I think he is a bit worried at school. He is very excited to get there but you can see it in the recall - quite slow and looking from side to side.

Worked out yesterday that he is very scared of the area that I work him in at home. Don't know why at all. Was being super sooky and when I took him back in the garden he perked up and I did some more training and he was much better. I usually only formally train him at home or at dog school. Walks obviously involve some training.

Do I baby him along? I don't think so. Unless he is super worried about something. I try to sound upbeat when he is like that though.

No I don't expect him paying attention the whole time at class. If we are talking or if I decide he has done the exercise enough then we just relax (and have cuddles).

Start word is usually his name and watch then it is go free at the end.

[Sayreovi]

I have a sooky soft dog but thankfully he does have pretty high drives so he has been a dream to teach. However i cant raise my voice otherwise he shuts down but he is therefore teaching me too be a better trainer as i have to find other ways to get him too want too do it.

[wheres my rock]

Do I baby him along? I don't think so. Unless he is super worried about something. I try to sound upbeat when he is like that though.

be careful that your talking and being upbeat isnt reinforcing the sooky behaviour i tend to stay atter of fact and wehn i find the dogs comfort zone and he relaxes then tell him how cool he is

[PAX]

Jules.

For your heeling you could teach a hand touch and then work that into heeling/duration.

With your recall, it sounds like the good boy is laying down waiting. Try running from him after you give him the come command and he is on his way to you. This should add a bit of excitement and might keep him up in a sit. Just try to think 'fast and fun'.

He is just a baby and he sounds lovely.

I say 'Are you ready' before I start any training or games and it really stirs the dogs up.