14wk Old Pup Bit Child :(

[Erny]

Everyone has some good points/tips here (although I disagree with one or two) .... However I think the MAIN points of focus should be:

1. Albeit that the pup is only 14 weeks of age, aggression has already been learnt.
   
2. The parents, from what I can tell, do not have the required knowledge to deal with it.
   

Especially when "aggression" is the issue and especially when "children" are the other issue, I have a tendancy to refrain from suggestions other than those that will stand them in good stead (and are non-challenging) until personal professional help is employed.

I agree that heirarchy needs to be developed. But, especially for the young children, forcing that is in itself challenging and is likely to lead to an unhappy ending both for the child concerned and for the pup, not to mention all others within the family.

Issuing tips and suggestions here on a forum worries me that people will then "just give it a try". But what they do might be either wrong and/or misunderstood by the readers and applied incorrectly and inappropriately.

Quite often, those of us who know what we're doing will try to explain something, but may also inadvertently err by way of omission on a point that to the uninitiated is extemely important and sometimes vital to positive progress.

Edited September 16, 2006 by Erny

[Australdi]

....and I'm surprised that some trainers are so behind the times with their training techniques that they still promote the old alpha roll.

The alpha roll is extremely dominant behaviour and it's also totally unecessary. The aim of obedience training is to have your dog respect you, not to physically push it around and manhandle it.

why is the Alpha role so sudenly out of "vogue"???? has anyone informed dog packs that this is no longer the way to conduct themselves????

heck!...this is the way dogs relate to each other!....how can it be so easily dismissed?..or more to the point...ignored?

Alpha training is NOT all about manhandling & pushing the dog around...it's about teaching manners, just like it's pack leader would! (and that doesn't need to involve aggresive methods!)

ok..I'm retreating to my crate again!!!

Aus

[Staff'n'Toller]

Australdi

The history and misconceptions of dominance theory

[Livi]

Especially when "aggression" is the issue and especially when "children" are the other issue, I have a tendancy to refrain from suggestions other than those that will stand them in good stead until personal professional help is employed.

I agree

Please remember this pup has already put a puncture wound in a child's hand, and that child was the eldest of the family concerned

[Erny]

....and I'm surprised that some trainers are so behind the times with their training techniques that they still promote the old alpha roll.

why is the Alpha role so sudenly out of "vogue"???? has anyone informed dog packs that this is no longer the way to conduct themselves????

I think you've misunderstood, Australdi.

cavNrott speaks of the "alpha roll", not the role of the Alpha. There is a different meaning to the two words "roll" and "role".

Alpha Roll is IMO antiquated as well. It is the act of physically rolling (or in some people's cases, roughly rolling/throwing) the dog on its back. The idea back then was that the person doing it was showing Alpha position by forcing the other to submission.

The thing with the "Alpha Roll" is however, that a true leader/dominant will incite submission in one who relinquishes heirarchy status/challenge. I have never yet seen a Wolf Pack Leader physically dump a subordinate on its back ...........

ETA: This misunderstanding by one poster of another already clearly shows how easy it is to misconstrue/misread something written. A good example of how easy this is to do and why matters of potentially injurious situations should be dealt with in person by a professional qualified for the job.

No offense to you, Aus. And I am presuming (which is dangerous in itself) that this WAS a misread/misunderstanding?

Edited September 16, 2006 by Erny

[Australdi]

I have never yet seen a Wolf Pack Leader physically dump a subordinate on its back ...........

ETA: This misunderstanding by one poster of another already clearly shows how easy it is to misconstrue/misread something written. A good example of how easy this is to do and why matters of potentially injurious situations should be dealt with in person by a professional qualified for the job.

ERNY...I agree..I have also never witnessed a pack leader have to correct beyond a small nip & growl...the subordinate is the one who chooses to roll over!

just to clear up any confusion....I was refering to pack ROLE ..not "roll" in my previous posts!

Aus

[cavNrott]

.

Edited May 19, 2009 by cavNrott

[Erny]

just to clear up any confusion....I was refering to pack ROLE ..not "roll" in my previous posts!

Thought you were - given your misunderstanding of cavNrott's post, I can well imagine your raised eyebrows at the thought she was suggesting "alpha role" (ie leadership) was out of vogue! But at least that's cleared up now.

[Guest DodgyDoggie]

I agree with cavnrott and Erny

but as I have a rotti pup thats 14 weeks old and 2 older dogs and a few kids running around as well I thought I might share some things that worked well with mine

My youngest child was 3 when I got our first pup a rotti X about 12 weeks old

I found I need to start with basics, I taught the dog to sit. then once the dog knew the command I taught the kids how to use the command. ie in a firm voice, not yelling, ask the dog to sit, when the dog sits give a reward.

Once the kids had learnt this I put kids and dogs together. and we progressed from there.

I found I had to train both my kids and my dogs.

When I got our second Rotti pup she was very food agrressive. With no kids in sight I feed her after the sit and release, I played with her food while she was eating it, touched her, took the food out of her mouth. ect. if she showed any sign of aggression, I stood up and took the food away.

Once she was fine with me, I taught the kids what we were going to do then put kids and pup together, the children(1 at each meal) sat with the bowl and pretended to eat out of itthen gave the sit and release command to the pup, they offered the food, any bad behavior they took the food and walked away pup goes hungry, children return and repeat. touch dog pat, play in food etc.

this is a very olng process and I could go into heaps of detail about it. I know have to dogs both over 40 kilos that my now 5yo can control. If any of my children go sith in 2 meters of my dogs eating the dogs sit and wait. when the child leaves their space they continue to eat.

I involve my children in every aspect of training.

I give my dogs space to eat, and I watch my kids but incase a child slips by unnoticed my dogs are great.

My children can also walk around eating and none of the dogs hassel them for food. If we eat in the lounge room a bowl can be left on th efloor and the older two will not touch it. Ishka is still learning but it will come

For disipline I taught the kids to growl real deep and remove their attention from the dogs. Very important for children not to eyeball the dogs or hit at them. I never let the kids get down on the dogs level, like laying on the floor, and never let the children lay with the pup on thier chest.

I also made sure I never corrected the kids in front of the dog but took the children to the next room and talked to them.

Hope this helps

[Erny]

DodgyDoggie - what you have written is what it is all about. Either you had that 'natural talent' or you were well read, versed and/or trained.

This is what I'm sure the OP's friend can achieve too (although for consistency's sake she will require a good amount of organisation and self-discipline given that she also has 7 kids under the age of 12yo to monitor ) with the right tuition.

I realise everyone learns differently, but I think the best learning is:

1. Read it.
   
2. Hear it.
   
3. See it.
   
4. Do it.
   

.... or at least #'s 2-4, and that's where private lessons are invaluable.

And I 100% agree with you, and what I've alluded to (or intended to allude to) in my earlier post/s ..... the parents need to know what to do, how to do it and be able to do it before they can then teach (under supervision) their children to do it.

Edited September 16, 2006 by Erny

[Australdi]

CaveNrott I actually agree with all that you are saying...apart from one small thing

All humans in a dog family, should be taught & be able to confidently approach & take food from the dogs mouth...no matter the circumstances! when this is possible, you know you have a dog who "knows" his place in the pack!

..it's a classic pack tussle & at the moment..dog considers himself higher than the kids! solution...both dog & kids need to be trained :D

just MHO....

Of course people should be able have a dog give up whatever it has in its mouth but you need to train the dog to do this. They are not born knowing it. I don't believe this incident has a thing to do with pack tussle....this is a puppy who is just doing what puppies do.

My dogs will spit out, projectile fashion, anything they have in their mouths when I say 'OUT'. They do that because I trained them to and I trained them by trading with them, not with any dominant method.

I don't really hold much value in the 'pack' system. My dogs respect me because I control resources. They obey me because it's in their best interest to do so. They have their own system of heirachy but that's between themselves and can change. My position does not change. They know I am not a dog and therefore not a member of the 'pack'.

I have Rottweilers and have never been challenged by any of my dogs. Now they are stronger than me. I'm a small person and each dog and I weigh about the same. I have their respect because I am consistent with them and I am fair. I don't expect them to obey a command they have not yet learnt. I just can't see how you can expect a dog to relinquish something as important to them as food until you have their trust and respect.

Again I would like to stress the importance of obedience training to the owners of the puppy because that way they will learn how to train the pup. Already they are experiencing difficulty and don't know how to handle the situation. Research, read training books and most importantly, have a consultation with a reputable trainer/behavourist.(not someone who resorts to the alpha roll)

CavNrott....now you've really got me confused! ...because you have just described yourself in "alpha role" in the pack...and you totally ignored my comment that both dogs & kids require training! ...and yet, you insist that Alpha training has no place....but you describe doing exatly that!????

dogie doggy is also describing teaching alpha pack leadership to her kids as well as her dogs...and she's getting the same results I did when I employed the same techniques...so what's the issue!? why is everyone so adversarial on this site!???? ....even when people are describing the same methods, they try to argue that they are somehow different!

I'm sorry, I am touchy because I lost my faithful (& well trained) companion of almost 11 years, so I'm certainly not being as patient as those who have known me a while would expect....but I just can't shut my mouth, when someone describes exactly what I was saying, but tries to crucify me in the process! I have never come across a forum quite like this!...most other forums I attend, the members go out of their way to help each other! ..here it seems that members go out of the way to put other members down & elevate their own egos in the process!'

sorry if this is comming across harsh...but I'm just too raw to give a damn!...if you don't think this refers to you, then ignore it...if you think it does...well maybe you might be right!

surely this is a place where people are meant to help each other...not publicly villify them! ;)

Aus

...rant over...taken some valium & returning to crate!

Aus

[Livi]

OK, just got an email from the owner (who I have given a link to this thread) and permission to post this.

Hello , i have read the post !!

First off the babies are never left alone with him , there is always someone in the yard . The babies even before the dog came along have never been in the yard alone , i cant have them out there like that there too precious ...

Anyway , he had a bath today went well , had a brush & then the babies feed him toast no problems there & then he walked on the lead with "K" ( pretty cute to see a little girl walking a pup ) .

I took him out the front when i did some weeding , he is funny he play bite but never will he bite me hard . Tonight was another story I put him on the lead & left him for about 2 mins whilst i got his dinner , I came outside held the dinner called him he had trouble looking at me & then i placed it within a 2 meter range , he of course jumped up and down and carried on .

I told him to sit & called his name he had trouble looking at me so i called him several times he looked at me & he stayed seated , mind you it was only for a second , & i told him good boy and let him of the chain , went to his bowl .

I walked up to him & said good boy whilst he was eating patted him on the head & he growled at me several times I hit him and said no . I thought he was going to bite me .

I called Hubby he did the same to him , Hubby took his food off him 3 times this happened , the last time he did not growl .

I maybe should have not approached him while he is eatting ?? But yep he is definately food aggresive .... So i dont know what to do now !!! Hubby says give it a few days and we will continue to take his food of him or touch him at food time .

Who knows !!!

[Australdi]

personally & IMHO...she's doing the right thing removing the food every time he growls!...and also doing the right thing by continually attempting touch and reinforcement when he is feeding.

..but I'm really getting to the point when I'm just waiting for someone to shoot me down, then describe the same thing in their own words!

...a very disillusioned Aus!

[Erny]

Sunny .... I'm not going to start training over the net. I've explained why in an earlier post, so please forgive me for refraining from doing so.

But I feel it would be remiss of me not to mention that some of what your friend says she did is right, and some IMO is wrong.

1. She's right - she should have left the pup to eat its meal after having completed the TOT exercise.
   
2. Different training is required to teach the pup that resource guarding (in this case, food) is not necessary.
   
3. If she continues to simply take the meal away, resource guarding could escalate, as could the aggression that goes with it.
   
4. It's not about the kids being alone - but obviously simply being 'around' isn't sufficient. The parents must be in control of both the kids and the pup whilst they are interacting.
   
5. I still think your friend needs a session or two from a private trainer/behaviourist.
   

Edited September 16, 2006 by Erny

[cavNrott]

.

Edited May 19, 2009 by cavNrott

[Guest DodgyDoggie]

Thank you Erny

I had good training from good breeders. I studied hard and i kept at it

I have rottweilers and children, their has to be order some where. I knew that they were going to get big so lots of things were not going to ever happen. as in no jumping up full stop. they had to be food safe. and the dogs had to take orders from the kids and the kids had to know how to give orders

When my rotti were little I had 5 kids here 3 under 6yo.

I find rottis very mouthy so I have always kept on top of this to stop it getting out of hand.

[cavNrott]

.

Edited May 19, 2009 by cavNrott

[Staff'n'Toller]

personally & IMHO...she's doing the right thing removing the food every time he growls!...and also doing the right thing by continually attempting touch and reinforcement when he is feeding.

..but I'm really getting to the point when I'm just waiting for someone to shoot me down, then describe the same thing in their own words!

...a very disillusioned Aus!

Yep he is learning:

a) I can't trust humans around my food, and they confirm the fact that I think they are going to steal it.

b) If I growl, I get attacked, if I give the humans warnings, they ignore them.

Punish the warnings and the dog stops giving warnings that is the most dangerous situation to be in with a dog, the kids/parents may well get bitten if they keep hitting the puppy. They are going to need to spend some money on getting themselves some education on how to live with a dog.

ETA: If the owners would like to PM me, I am more than happy to point them in the right direction. My email is also under my nickname details.

Edited September 16, 2006 by Staff'n'Toller

[Erny]

I have also just lost my beloved 13 1/2yo old dog 4 weeks ago yesterday, so I understand quite how you are feeling.

And Aus, I had to send my sweet girl .... my soul dog, bless her heart .... off with her wings 8 weeks ago. I too know how you are feeling.

[Erny]

You may describe the way I interact with my dogs as an Alpha Role, I do not. I am not a member of a dog pack. I know that and so do my dogs.

Anne - Would you mind if I discuss this with you a little please? (and for this, I seek the OP's indulgences if this is slightly off topic). Just conversationally like, not debating or arguing.

I find your 'concept' interesting and to a degree, thought provoking. But then I'm thinking "a rose by any other name smells as sweet". By that I mean I see your "belief" (or should I say "non-belief" of the human taking the "Alpha Role" as we understand it. But could it not be that simply because you are consistent, you are assertive and that you train your dogs to observe guidelines you set, that the dogs could very well see you as a pack member and leader?

I could, of course, reverse the above and suggest that many of us do believe in the 'human' Alpha Role, and much of what we do with our dogs is likely to be similar to what you do and perhaps the dogs don't see us as the "pack leader" we perceive ourselves to be.

But the end result is the same is it not?