cavNrott Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 (edited) . Edited May 19, 2009 by cavNrott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 okay...I've already stated I'm in a touchy mood.....but if everything that everyone is throwing at me is true..then surely, I would have been attacked/bitten by one of my own dogs!....but this hasn't happened....so where are the wires getting crossed!? even allowing for my touchiness...it doesn't seem to matter what I say...someone comes up, quotes me in limited context, then proceeds to denigrate anything I say, regardles of the full context of what I wrote....so what the hell am I meant to think!? look; I don't have any political or comercial adgendas...I just love dogs & have (perhaps) been blessed to mother 2 of the most beautiful & well behaved dobes you'd come across (neither were a walk in the park in the beginning..but I achieved the positive result through the methods I am attempting to share) ..however...some people & I don't know why...seem to want to denigrade the methods I used to achieve my results. heck, I'm only trying to help by offering alternative solutions....but some don't seem to like that. & it's not even as if I disagree with what others are saying!!!....if I diverge just the slightest, I'm slamed! as dog owners...I'm sure the first thing that our adolecent pups taught us to be was tolerant & patient...why can't we all follow our dogs example? MY categorical belief is that the training program has to suit both the trainer & the dog...and be mindfull of breed specific tendancies...is that so radical? Is asking people to understand their dogs point of view so radical? is asking people to consider their specific dogs personality when devising training methods (as well as their own personality) so radical? so why the heck am I feeling that every time I open my mouth & express myself...I'm instantly declared a "dangerous" dog & ought to be muzzled!?..geez...I'm just trying to help...and put 20+ yrs of animal training out there in case it helps someone! go ahead, crucify me if you want...just because I don't suplicate myself to the newest fad that comes along....I look at results..and if that is anything to go by..then I don't feel the need to question too much of what I have done! okay...I'm shutting up now!...what's the point of being one voice in a sea of dogmatism! Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DodgyDoggie Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Is the owner of the pup coming to look at this if so please can we help her everyone has different veiws we are all trying to help I love rotti I love my children and I beleive that the owners here can work it out I spoke to many trainers and breeders to get where I ma with my dogs and children Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaves Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 AustraldiThe history and misconceptions of dominance theory That was a brilliant read. Thoroughly made sense. fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Australdi It is just that when young children are involved it is best to be cautious and not advise steps which might lead to a bite. And confrontations such as growling at the dog, rough handling etc may lead to a bite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I ... have (perhaps) been blessed to mother 2 of the most beautiful & well behaved dobes you'd come across (neither were a walk in the park in the beginning..but I achieved the positive result through the methods I am attempting to share) ..however...some people & I don't know why...seem to want to denigrade the methods I used to achieve my results. I certainly don't seek to denegrate, Australdi. As I pointed out in another earlier post - when you are dealing in potentially injurious matters, it's not IMO satisfactory to advise ANY method that could be taken as challenging by a dog over the net in the absence of knowing the people and dog/s concerned. In addition, whilst I applaude that your methods have been successful in relation to your two dobes, two dogs out of the whole population does not make that method right or appropriate for others. What some of us have been pointing out here is not to degenerate you as such, but it is to inform the OP (and her friend, for whom this thread was generated) that there are dangers in simply removing food and also dangers in creating a challenge. Please always keep your mind open to the fact that what has worked for you might have been a bit flukey and may not bring about the result required in other people's instances. Please also keep your mind open to the fact that many who read here (not only the OP) may well be very new to the world of dogs and, feeling they know less, take literally and for gospel a lot of what is said. Hence the need for caution in what you say, about the topic you say it in (bearing in mind the sensitivities required for potential injuries) and how you say and explain it. What if this dog/pup did not respond in the way you imagine it might? What then? This is the sort of information people need. Training - especially behaviour modification, is not black and white. It's not simply a matter of "do this and the dog will do that" .... because all dogs are different and all people are different. Ergo the perception between dog and human and vice versa is different from one to another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted September 16, 2006 Author Share Posted September 16, 2006 The owner is coming in to have a look but I have left it up to her with regards to joining in. I am glad I posted, the response has been fantastic, thankyou DOLers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal House Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Please dont let your friend hit the dog and take its food away for growling, this will lead to him not trusting humans and guarding his food even more. She needs a qualified behaviourist/trainer to come out and show her what to do. Why did they get a Rotti when they have 7 kids under 12......just curious, not trying to flame or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Is the owner of the pup coming to look at this if so please can we help her We are helping her by recommending she seeks the services of a qualified trainer/behaviourist. We are helping her because we've given her a couple of non-challenging programs to follow in the interim to engaging a trainer/behaviourist. We are helping her because we are suggesting what to avoid doing so the problem doesn't escalate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 AustraldiIt is just that when young children are involved it is best to be cautious and not advise steps which might lead to a bite. And confrontations such as growling at the dog, rough handling etc may lead to a bite. please note...I never suggested rough handling ...just advised to use dog language..so the dog can understand what is expected of him Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Since we are not dogs some of us may not be as good at using doggy language as others . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 (edited) . Edited May 19, 2009 by cavNrott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I ... have (perhaps) been blessed to mother 2 of the most beautiful & well behaved dobes you'd come across (neither were a walk in the park in the beginning..but I achieved the positive result through the methods I am attempting to share) ..however...some people & I don't know why...seem to want to denigrade the methods I used to achieve my results. I certainly don't seek to denegrate, Australdi. As I pointed out in another earlier post - when you are dealing in potentially injurious matters, it's not IMO satisfactory to advise ANY method that could be taken as challenging by a dog over the net in the absence of knowing the people and dog/s concerned. In addition, whilst I applaude that your methods have been successful in relation to your two dobes, two dogs out of the whole population does not make that method right or appropriate for others. What some of us have been pointing out here is not to degenerate you as such, but it is to inform the OP (and her friend, for whom this thread was generated) that there are dangers in simply removing food and also dangers in creating a challenge. Please always keep your mind open to the fact that what has worked for you might have been a bit flukey and may not bring about the result required in other people's instances. Please also keep your mind open to the fact that many who read here (not only the OP) may well be very new to the world of dogs and, feeling they know less, take literally and for gospel a lot of what is said. Hence the need for caution in what you say, about the topic you say it in (bearing in mind the sensitivities required for potential injuries) and how you say and explain it. What if this dog/pup did not respond in the way you imagine it might? What then? This is the sort of information people need. Training - especially behaviour modification, is not black and white. It's not simply a matter of "do this and the dog will do that" .... because all dogs are different and all people are different. Ergo the perception between dog and human and vice versa is different from one to another. Thanks Erny, I was playing around with writing the same type of thing but after a long day am having trouble articulating it.....err...umm...non-inflammatory. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Thanks Erny, I was playing around with writing the same type of thing but after a long day am having trouble articulating it.....err...umm...non-inflammatory. I have many days like that SnT! In fact, I do recall seeing some of your posts where you've saved ME from posting because YOU'VE been able to word it, where my words were tangled up in my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I ... have (perhaps) been blessed to mother 2 of the most beautiful & well behaved dobes you'd come across (neither were a walk in the park in the beginning..but I achieved the positive result through the methods I am attempting to share) ..however...some people & I don't know why...seem to want to denigrade the methods I used to achieve my results. I certainly don't seek to denegrate, Australdi. As I pointed out in another earlier post - when you are dealing in potentially injurious matters, it's not IMO satisfactory to advise ANY method that could be taken as challenging by a dog over the net in the absence of knowing the people and dog/s concerned. which is why I advised individual training programs.... In addition, whilst I applaude that your methods have been successful in relation to your two dobes, two dogs out of the whole population does not make that method right or appropriate for others. What some of us have been pointing out here is not to degenerate you as such, but it is to inform the OP (and her friend, for whom this thread was generated) that there are dangers in simply removing food and also dangers in creating a challenge. which is why I advised individual training programs. Please always keep your mind open to the fact that what has worked for you might have been a bit flukey and may not bring about the result required in other people's instances. which is why I advised individual training programs Please also keep your mind open to the fact that many who read here (not only the OP) may well be very new to the world of dogs and, feeling they know less, take literally and for gospel a lot of what is said. Hence the need for caution in what you say, about the topic you say it in (bearing in mind the sensitivities required for potential injuries) and how you say and explain it. Erny..I know this is where I fall short..I find animals easier to communicate with than humans! What if this dog/pup did not respond in the way you imagine it might? What then? This is the sort of information people need. Training - especially behaviour modification, is not black and white. It's not simply a matter of "do this and the dog will do that" .... because all dogs are different and all people are different. Ergo the perception between dog and human and vice versa is different from one to another. again...that's why I advise individual training programs.... however....training an animal is not some secret gift that is only available to the few...it's available to anyone who wants to make the time & effort to research their breed & animals in general.....then spend some quality time observing them interact in a natural environment!...it's actually NOT rocket science! Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 (edited) I'm not sure what "individual training programs" you recommended .... perhaps I got lost in your posts there. The most of what I recall reading (and to what I have responded to for the OP's clarity) is the recommendation to (in essence) growl at the pup and remove its food from it. training ... [is] ... NOT rocket science! You're right there, Australdi. It is simple when you know how. But because people first have to come to grips with the concept of thinking as our dogs do (rather than presuming they think as we do) and because animal behaviour and its responses are fluid rather than static, it can be pretty daunting to some at first. This is why seeing someone demonstrate it and then owners doing it with personal coaching is the best, easiest and IMO in this case the safest way to go for all concerned. Hopefully, the parents have the time to put in ..... and that goes for saying regardless of what breed of dog/pup they have. Edited September 16, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbear Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Your getting some great advise here sunny. One thing I would like to add is that the pup really needs it own "quiet place". Somewhere that it can go and rest and not be disturbed by the children. Whether this is a crate, a kennel, or a bed it doesnt matter - the main thing is that everyone knows the dog is to be left alone when it is in this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted September 16, 2006 Author Share Posted September 16, 2006 Aus, I don't want to upset you, but I'm feeling a bit frustrated that a thread which involves the safety of children is going OT on an argument about what you think people think of you The little ones in this family are only about 18mths old...right at Rotty pup face level, I just want to help my friend and the dog to make sure this doesn't happen and given one child already has a puncture in the hand I feel it is quite serious. Personally I have an 8yo snoring on the lounge using a Dobe's rump for a pillow. Luck, breeding or the way he was raised ? I'm not qualified to answer that just because my dog is a certain way doesn't mean the way I have handled him is an answer to every problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I find your 'concept' interesting and to a degree, thought provoking. But then I'm thinking "a rose by any other name smells as sweet". By that I mean I see your "belief" (or should I say "non-belief" of the human taking the "Alpha Role" as we understand it. But could it not be that simply because you are consistent, you are assertive and that you train your dogs to observe guidelines you set, that the dogs could very well see you as a pack member and leader? I could, of course, reverse the above and suggest that many of us do believe in the 'human' Alpha Role, and much of what we do with our dogs is likely to be similar to what you do and perhaps the dogs don't see us as the "pack leader" we perceive ourselves to be. But the end result is the same is it not? I have no issue with anyone who chooses to refer to themselves as the Alpha of their dog pack. If they feel that's the role they play then I certainly won't argue with them. I honestly don't think my dogs see me as another dog so therefore I can't be a member of their pack. The dogs certainly take my lead because I believe dogs do what is in their own best interests and to challenge me or ignore a command has consequences such as:- If they do not recall the fun is over and there will be no more fetching the ball. If they try to push me out of the way to get through a door then the door is closed in their face. If they rush at their food bowl then they are told to sit again until I give the OK. In all these instances and others I won't bore you with I see it as the dogs knowing darn well that I control all resources. They want what I have or what I can give them so they need to offer certain behaviours to get what they want. I don't believe they are compliant because I am the alpha and therefore 'she who must be obeyed' but because unless they do offer the appropriate behaviour they have been trained to offer then they won't get what they want. They do get told AH AH if they offer the wrong behaviour. I don't need dominance over my dogs, I need respect and compliance. To me the term Alpha represents the dominance of one dog over the other dogs in their group or pack, if you prefer. ummm...CavNrott..what you are describing IS dominance over your dogs...but not; I agree in the "alpha " sense. As alpha...I am priveliged to recieve (whether I enjoy it or not) all the behaviour that indicates a pack member is willing to abide by the "alpha"...this includes ear cleaning...toe cleaning & nail trimming....I don't actually find the experience exactly pleasant...however, I also acknowledge that is in dog language the way a pack member curries favour with the "alpha" & therefore I allow it, for as long as I can stand it! when you say you don't believe you are acting as "alpha.".. however you control the rewards....this is what an "alpha" does!...so you might not consider yourself "alpha" but I'll lay money that your dogs look at you as "alpha"! I get both respect & complience without "dominating" the pack hierachy....they actively seek my company and approval to keep their own standing in the pack and it requires little reinforcement from me (once established) to keep them seeking my approval & favour ...seriously...it's not that different to what you are doing, except that I am a bit more responsive & accept & understand what my dogs are saying in their language ;) Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 (edited) I don't need dominance over my dogs, I need respect and compliance. To me the term Alpha represents the dominance of one dog over the other dogs in their group or pack, if you prefer. (sorry, Sunny). ..... Hi cNr. I guess it boils down to our own personal perceptions of "Alpha". I see the Alpha as the one who has proven a leadership in which the 'pack' can trust. A leadership that whilst it contains the privileges of governing, also contains the responsibility of protection to the members of the pack. In carrying out the role of "Alpha" fairly, I believe it also earns the Alpha the respect from the others. I don't regard it as a role by which the "Alpha" is forever domineering or lording it over the others (and in fact, I don't believe that's what an Alpha in a wild wolf pack would do either). Hhhmmm - doesn't matter, really, does it. Was just interested, though .... so thanks for sharing. Edited September 16, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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