The Shake N Kill It Move

[shekhina]

I *think* I remember reading about this somewhere, but I can't remember where and I can't remember what it said

Is there some kind of 'meaning' for it? I know it's probably got something to do with the dog 'killing' their prey once they've caught it, but does it mean anything as far as drives go?

I play a game with my Rottweiler Daegon, it's the towel game. He has one special towel that he's allowed to run at and grab and tug at a bit before I release it for him. He lurrrrves it. After he's 'won' the towel he gives it a really hard shake, he's done this at 8 1/2 weeks old as well. Then after he's 'killed' it he keeps hold of it in his mouth and comes and stands next to me with it and sometimes shoves it back at me as if to say "again mum, again!"

I use it as a motivator to get him up and excited about something (as well as the famous broom bashing game ). He gets really revved up about it and just loves working in that kind of way.

So, just wondering if there's anything to it in the way of drive, or his possible work potential?

[KitKat]

I can't answer that...but Sabre loves doing it to chicken wings and frames

It's sooo cute to watch

[shekhina]

Ha, yes it was most cute seeing this little 8 week old Rotty pup 'killing' the squeaky bone toy and come bounding back with it asking for more

As lazy as the bugger is, if you play a certain way with him you can't stop him.

[herding_guy]

Is there some kind of 'meaning' for it? I know it's probably got something to do with the dog 'killing' their prey once they've caught it, but does it mean anything as far as drives go?

I play a game with my Rottweiler Daegon, it's the towel game. He has one special towel that he's allowed to run at and grab and tug at a bit before I release it for him. He lurrrrves it. After he's 'won' the towel he gives it a really hard shake, he's done this at 8 1/2 weeks old as well. Then after he's 'killed' it he keeps hold of it in his mouth and comes and stands next to me with it and sometimes shoves it back at me as if to say "again mum, again!"

I use it as a motivator to get him up and excited about something (as well as the famous broom bashing game :rolleyes:). He gets really revved up about it and just loves working in that kind of way.

So, just wondering if there's anything to it in the way of drive, or his possible work potential?

Head shake is a particular motor pattern in the predatory drive sequence in some canids. It is a variation of Kill - bite. Some of my dogs have the kill bite and some shake bite. Kill bite is a suffocating and strangling move and shake bite tears flesh and bleeds the prey to death in wild canids.

Lovely isn't it?

[Australdi]

Zillah has this drive too...his kills include 3 chew toys (the twisted rope kind)...he undoes the knot at one end, untwists the threads then shakes bits of string all through the house, continually! bashes himself in the head with the knot if he picks up the wrong end! :rolleyes: but can keep himself amused "killing " the chew toy for hours!...well at least 10 minutes heheheh..yeah I' a tad prone to exageration! :D

Aus

[Hounder]

Xena does this with her toys and she did it when catching rats, would break their back. She also shakes her head when she gets excited or nuzzling head. Me thinks she has Indian blood,

[Guest DodgyDoggie]

Tyson did this with our cat

Definatley a shake and kill thing because it sure killed the cat

Doesnt answer your question but just thought I would share

[RealityBites]

If a dog is shaking a toy like that when playing with it, he can also be trying to 'reactivate' it as well. I.e it has gone 'dead' and he shakes it to try and get some more reaction out of it. If training in drive and the dog is shaking the toy like that when he 'captures' it, it could mean he is not getting enough drive satisfaction from the game and he's trying to make the toy more 'alive' if that makes sense?If my dobes do that when we are training, I make sure they get a really good tug game before they get the toy released, and they very rarely shake it like that when they get it. It's interesting!

[Animal House]

Tyson did this with our cat

Definatley a shake and kill thing because it sure killed the cat

Doesnt answer your question but just thought I would share

Poor cat

[MonElite]

veru interesting herding guy, just made me realise that I have got one of each at home. Rex does the capture and hold down, Divani is the shake and kill type of a dog.

[shekhina]

If training in drive and the dog is shaking the toy like that when he 'captures' it, it could mean he is not getting enough drive satisfaction from the game and he's trying to make the toy more 'alive' if that makes sense?

I'm training my GSD in drive and he used to sometimes toss his head around with the ball after he'd captured it. Now we're further into the training it's every single time. Will have to ask K9 Force about that as perhaps he's needing more drive satisfaction

The poor boy goes BONKERS when he sees that particular toy now. And when I go out into the backyard with him, if I don't have the toy he picks up the nearest thing that could be a toy...like a small piece of string/small rock/peg/anything he can find (?!) and tosses it around

[Pheebs]

Is this what we're talking about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8TzXrCro8A

(Sorry it's sideways - i'm an unco )

[shekhina]

Yes that's the one

[Sayreovi]

veru interesting herding guy, just made me realise that I have got one of each at home. Rex does the capture and hold down, Divani is the shake and kill type of a dog.

Same here, Nova will just hold whatever he has down, whereas Darcy will shake it and throw it around.

[herding_guy]

If training in drive and the dog is shaking the toy like that when he 'captures' it, it could mean he is not getting enough drive satisfaction from the game and he's trying to make the toy more 'alive' if that makes sense?

Tossing the prey item is seen in wild canid pups and feline kittens it helps them develop other predatory drive motor patterns. Domesticated dogs have been bred for 1'000's of years to be more puppy like and these puppy like behaviours have been hypotrophied through artificial selection.

For example my more serious working dog Scout never plays like my non working dog Dylan. Dylan will play for hours shaking / tossing / shaking / tossing like a pup does but can't herd even though he is extremely high prey drive and gets lots of drive satisfaction. Scout on the other hand never plays like Dylan he will instead pick up a toy and bring it to me to bring it to life. Both have been grounded very much the same way by me. IMO the difference is that Scout has been bred from a very long line of hard working dogs (not bidable dogs) that heve been bred to work in extreme conditions whereas Dylan hes been bred more for domestication and human friendliness. They both have extremely high prey drive it is just that they have been bred for different parts of the prey drive motor pattern sequence and different levels of bidabillity

I'm training my GSD in drive and he used to sometimes toss his head around with the ball after he'd captured it. Now we're further into the training it's every single time. Will have to ask K9 Force K9 Force about that as perhaps he's needing more drive satisfaction

The poor boy goes BONKERS when he sees that particular toy now. And when I go out into the backyard with him, if I don't have the toy he picks up the nearest thing that could be a toy...like a small piece of string/small rock/peg/anything he can find (?!) and tosses it around

Your GSD is just exhibiting one motor pattern in the predatory drive sequence. He has either learned to do it or it is one of those genetic "talents" ie GRAB-BITE / SHAKE. It is still part of the predatory drive.

I am more confused by the question "....perhaps he's needing more drive satisfaction" and am interested in hearing what K9 Force might like to add. To me predatory drive in a high prey drive dog like a working/herding bred dog is almost inexhaustable. The dog has to be physically incapable to "hunt", for want of a better word, to stop him wanting to experience prey drive (which is not a good point to get the young dog to by the way) . It's like a drug to them.... they are like prey drive junkies cant stop, cant stop, cant stop (internally rewarding)......so how can a dog like this be satisfied. The trick is letting them experience, channeling, manipulating and training behaviours in prey drive so the dog is rewarded internally and you are the coreographer.

Hope this makes sense.

[Lablover]

IMO the difference is that Scout has been bred from a very long line of hard working dogs (not bidable dogs) that heve been bred to work in extreme conditions whereas Dylan hes been bred more for domestication and human friendliness.

HG, sorry to pick one section of your post. Hard??? (as in recovery time/sound nerves), do you mean insensitive. The best workers from my experience are bold/hard, but sensitive dogs? Otherwise I suppose, they would have killed themselves in puppyhood.

I do think verbal translation, not only between different breeds,different countries and requirements confuse the WHOLE meaning.

[herding_guy]

HG, sorry to pick one section of your post. Hard??? (as in recovery time/sound nerves), do you mean insensitive. The best workers from my experience are bold/hard, but sensitive dogs? Otherwise I suppose, they would have killed themselves in puppyhood.

I do think verbal translation, not only between different breeds,different countries and requirements confuse the WHOLE meaning.

All of the above a)recovery time/sound nerves, b) insesitive plus c)game and d)honest. Sorry should of been clearer.

Believe me Scout almost killed himself many times through to adulthood and is still trying................gotta love that dog.

[snobbybobby]

I play a game with my Rottweiler Daegon, it's the towel game. He has one special towel that he's allowed to run at and grab and tug at a bit before I release it for him. He lurrrrves it. After he's 'won' the towel he gives it a really hard shake, he's done this at 8 1/2 weeks old as well. Then after he's 'killed' it he keeps hold of it in his mouth and comes and stands next to me with it and sometimes shoves it back at me as if to say "again mum, again!"

I use it as a motivator to get him up and excited about something (as well as the famous broom bashing game ). He gets really revved up about it and just loves working in that kind of way.

So, just wondering if there's anything to it in the way of drive, or his possible work potential?

Can't answer your query 'cos I've got dogs that aren't in a Rotty's league - sizewise

I've got a query though!

Is this what the Labs that are drug detection dogs get to do once they've indicated their suspicions??? I was watching Border Patrol on TV last night and noticed a towel object they got as a reward after indicating a possible drug haul.

Just a query!

[herding_guy]

I've got a query though!

Is this what the Labs that are drug detection dogs get to do once they've indicated their suspicions??? I was watching Border Patrol on TV last night and noticed a towel object they got as a reward after indicating a possible drug haul.

Just a query!

IF they are active reward dogs, the answer is yes.

[phatdex]

My shar pei sonic is very soft mouthed when playing and very puppy like and he does the shake the toy like crazy thing where as my amstaff Gouki is very strong mouthed and dog aggressive and prey drive motivated, and he rarely does the shake with his toys. He prefers to stand on one end of the toy and rip upwards from it with his mouth. I dunno what that shows, but my soft dog wouldnt be killing anything, yet he pretends to kill his toy, where as the one who would kill things doesnt shake. If that made sense.