Teaching "take" And "give" Or "hold" A D

[bridgie_cat]

Hey guys!

At dog school this morning we were introduced to the dumbell and the lady teaching told us to "force" it into the dogs mouth, force the mouth closed... count to 5 and then say give and let it out again...

Is this how anyone else learned this skill??... it seems like it is against every basic dog training rule I know!

Training is meant to be fun! I think that forcing lana to take the dumbell is just gonna make her hate it!

Would love to hear opinions on this one > whether you guys agree with me or if some have had success with this technique.

Also alternative methods would be good to hear! I figure if I teach her a diff way before i get the instructor back then i wont be made to do it her way!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks

BC

[Kavik]

Does your dog like to hold/carry objects in general? If so, you could hold the dumbell, move it around so it looks interesting, and see if your dog will come over and hold it on its own.

Otherwise you can do what I did and clicker train it. Here is the site I used to clicker train the retrieve:

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/retrieve.html

The key to this is PATIENCE! It can take a while, and I had a few plateaus and problem areas, but Diesel now enjoys retrieving! I still need to speed it up a bit, and introduce the stay beforehand.

As soon as Diesel sees the dumbell he gets excited and tries to grab it when he can!

[helen]

I agree. Bella didn't like dumbells at all. I taught her to hold it correctly using clicker training. Once she knew how to hold it I basically taught her to retrieve it using it like I would a toy

[Mornir]

You could try rubbing a bit of peanut butter on it to to make it taste good too!

[Mornir]

I have a question regarding this actually. What weight dumb bells should be used? Is there a standard?

My dogs are 20kg and 10kg (just to give you an idea of their size and what they may be capable of )

Our instructor has given us pieces of thick dowel to use (I guess like a broom handle?) to train the dog the retrieve. But I would prefer to start off with a dumb bell straight away as I have a handy collection of them here at home anyway.

Any advice regarding the weight i should use?

[lab and poodle]

I would never ever do that to any dog for any reason what so ever. I would check the inherent prey drive and if it exists work on it, if it is very poor, I would look at Shirley Chong or Lana Mitchell "The Clicked Retriever", and to really throw a bit of confusion in the mix, if you dog has very low prey drive, or very high retrieving drive, I would read Dawn Jecs and teach scent discrimination first.

I taught my little poodle to do scent discrimination and return with metal articles at the age of 5 months. I can show you a photo, and am only too happy to help if you PM me. There was no force, a lot of fun, and a bit of manipulation.

[Kavik]

I just have the standard white plastic one with square bells. You can get ones with round bells or wooden ones as well. I'm not sure it matters which one you have as long as it is the right size?

[helen]

I think the size is the most important thing so they are not mouthing it too much if it is too wide.

Weight probably depends on the dog. Bella has a very soft gundog mouth and really hated the heavy plastic one I had so I order a very light weight wooden one from J and J Dog Supplies in the USA and she loved it.

[Kavik]

How did you teach scent descrimination first? All the books/articles I have read on scent descrimination for obedience assumes your dog already retrieves.

While teaching 'hold' I also used a metal article to get Diesel used to holding that as well.

[Erny]

I have seen the method you describe, being practiced. I don't think it is a matter of a "bad instructor" ... more appropriately, a "different training method".

There will be many differing opinions on this form of 'forced hold', just as there are for other various training methods. Generally, what it comes down to is what works best for the dog.

When I witnessed the 'forced hold' being demonstrated, the dogs used were not stressed - and time spent was limited to a period so the dog DIDN'T become stressed. The compulsion asserted was by no means extreme or violent - rather, it was gentle but persistent. And there were tonnes of positive reward thrown into the mix.

Once the dogs got the 'idea', they were inclined to hold the article. Prior to that exercise, these dogs had no retrieving inclination that had been able to be triggered using different methods. Their new-found "trick/skill" led them on to enjoying a field of sport/activities that would otherwise have been prohibited to them if they had not been able to get past the hurdle of holding the item.

ETA: I wish to add that I would not have described the method demonstrated to me as "forced mouth open ... forced mouth closed". It was more along the lines of encourage assertively the dog to receive the item and prevent it being spat out by some pressure under the dog's jaw to keep the jaw on the item.

Edited September 3, 2006 by Erny

[Lablover]

Bridgiecat,

I cannot help wondering also if the obedience instructor in a group situation has the time to explain ie the Shirley Chong method.

I had a look at her method (including the use of the clicker), and it certainly seems a long drawn out process, with the dog still, I suppose for want of a better word - GUESSING what the handler requires the dog to do with --------the damm object.

Opening a dog mouth from puppyhood helps in checking teeth etc so with the right base, I feel it is no big deal to insert a bumper/dummy etc and praise for correct responses.

Sometimes the simple way is the best, LOL.

[wheres my rock]

im not going to get into the forced retrive versus he clicker i use a non forced clicker retrive based on john fishers method and it has worked every time on heaps of different dogs even those with no retrieve and most have been fetching within days

[Kavik]

I have to admit I didn't follow the process totally I skipped a few steps once Diesel understood to hold, take object at different angles and heights, and from the ground.

[MrsD]

I have seen the method you describe, being practiced. I don't think it is a matter of a "bad instructor" ... more appropriately, a "different training method".

There will be many differing opinions on this form of 'forced hold', just as there are for other various training methods. Generally, what it comes down to is what works best for the dog.

When I witnessed the 'forced hold' being demonstrated, the dogs used were not stressed - and time spent was limited to a period so the dog DIDN'T become stressed. The compulsion asserted was by no means extreme or violent - rather, it was gentle but persistent. And there were tonnes of positive reward thrown into the mix.

Once the dogs got the 'idea', they were inclined to hold the article. Prior to that exercise, these dogs had no retrieving inclination that had been able to be triggered using different methods. Their new-found "trick/skill" led them on to enjoying a field of sport/activities that would otherwise have been prohibited to them if they had not been able to get past the hurdle of holding the item.

ETA: I wish to add that I would not have described the method demonstrated to me as "forced mouth open ... forced mouth closed". It was more along the lines of encourage assertively the dog to receive the item and prevent it being spat out by some pressure under the dog's jaw to keep the jaw on the item.

I taught both my previous GSDs using this method, one had no prey drive whatsoever, one had some preydrive to start with (but not alot). They both retrieved very happily & extremely reliably once I had taught them.

Horses for courses .

[bridgie_cat]

Thanks for all the replies!

Erny - method you are describing sounds like maybe what she was going for

I am not keen on this instructor anyway > seems to have lost the plot as far as fun goes... deffers said to FORCE mouth to stay closed causing Lana much stress... I may try similar at home just without mean lady watching and telling me what to do!

Lana is good at taking the bit of wood anyway so i dont think it will be too hard > i was just annoyed that the instructor made the experience so unpleasant.

[Mornir]

well I stepped up to the dumbell tonight because I felt a little more confident. Unfortunately, by usingf the bit of wood I seem to have taught them to grab the end. SO they are grabbing the bell and not the bit. I can't seem to get them to grab the bit reliably.

They seemed to have it, but once I put it on the floor they picked it up by the bell again! So I tried not reinforcing that and only reinforcing when the took it by the bit, but after a few goes of taking it by the bell they just gave up. Argh! I have a headache now. Perhaps I am just moving too fast and need to slow it down. I tried rubbbing peanut butter over the bit and I praised and clicked when they licked it off the bit. But that didn't really seem to achieve anything.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[lab and poodle]

"How did you teach scent descrimination first? All the books/articles I have read on scent descrimination for obedience assumes your dog already retrieves."

This process is very long to explain, very short to do. My old lab had a very strong retrieve drive and when presented with a pile of discrimination articles would go out and get the first article imaginable. I tried nearly every method known to local trainers and in the end, sent away for Dawn Jec's book. I set up a pile of 20 metal objects (not so nice to retrieve) and scented one with a small treat on it. Well, within five minutes he had the guts and within 10, he was discriminating all types of articles. I tried for over 4 months to get this,and I am no flakey when it comes to effort. it was one of my better moments in dog training. I had one more minor problem, but you can have the fun of sorting that out yourself.

With my poodle, I set a pile of 10 metal objects up, and put them to one side of the door.I scented them all. For about three days, I would walk her past these object as we did her training. On the third day I "let" her have a look at them as a reward. I cued a word "look" to her first reaction which was to sniff all over the articles.

I then started adding unscented articles, which she would visibly ignore. I clicked and rewarded for this. I then had only one scented article left which she searched for , found, couldn't help herself picked up and bought back to me.I "let" her bring it back to me, and then she ran around and around the garage with the metal article. She will reliably scent discriminate now, and thinks metal objects are fun. This method is contained within the clicked retrieve by Lana Mitchell

I have used compulsion on my lab for tracking corners and faster retrieves, in the past, and it had less than satisfactory results. It just seemed to confuse him, slow his learning process down, take ages to fix. Hence, I would sooner not bother.If it is neccessary in the future , we will stay at home and smell the roses. It is a bit more fun and effective for us.

[Kavik]

Mornir

Did you read the article I posted? If you are clicker training this you want to go fairly slowly. If it your first time using the dumbell, all you are doing is trying to get the dog interested in the dumbell (that it is a GOOD OBJECT) - if you are past this, then get the dog to focus on the bit while the dumbell is in your hand. It is quite a while before you put it on the ground.

[Kavik]

I have to admit that teaching retrieving with a clicker is one of those times you need a few extra hands

To focus on the bit you only reinforce grabbing for the bit, not the bell, you may want to hold the dumbell with only the bit exposed if this is really a problem (how many hands do you have? )

[wheres my rock]

i use a verbal marker one less hand needed then