Fearfull Of Dogs

[BrunoBella]

I have been reading a lot of topics on dog agression as my Bella (2.5) has some fear aggression issues. I thought it would be useful to start a separate topic for this subject. Bella has been to see K9 Force and has improved in leaps and bounds with other distractions - birds and people. At 6 months, Bella was bitten by a malamute (puncture in her side) which broke its collar while walking past us.

I am not sure how to tell which dog she will have problems with and what to do about it. For the last few months I have been walking a long way around other dogs while I work on desensitising to birds and people. Now I want to desensitise her to to dogs but need more information.

Scenarios: We walk towards another dog on lead, Bella either:

walks past within a metre with no reaction

hides behind me and growls - making eye contact with the dog - if I see this happening, I move around the other dogs, the distance required varies from dog to dog.

Is she responding to rude dogs? How do I tell which dogs are going to cause problems?

Also last weekend we were bailed up by an off-lead lab who raced up to Bella and started a close staring, growling match (lots of noise but no action). I presume she reacted to the labs rude approach?

I would appreciate any comments or similar stories to compare with .

Thank you

Edited January 23, 2009 by BrunoBella

[dogdude]

Hi

For a dog who has fear aggression problems, I think the worst thing you could do is take a gamble on walking directly up to strange dogs, especially front on. A better way would be to start off by meeting seasoned obedience club dogs that have no social problems, "top to tail". This is a non threatening way for both dogs to meet and at first keep the meetings quite brief, making sure you reward good behaviour. Avoid any dogs who show signs of dominance ie; tail carried high, staring matches and dogs that lean on your dogs shoulders with their neck etc. Also avoid the goofy adolecent type dogs who may not realize they are upsetting your dog until he is confident with meeting new dogs. If this did not work, I would see a behavioral specialist to properly diagnose your dogs behavior.

[jaybeece]

Most of the time for my dog it's either the dog's size or eye contact. If they come tearing up to him it definately doesn't help either as he becomes defensive a lot quicker.

I'm in the same position as you, but instead of trying to figure out which dogs he won't like I work on the assumption that he won't like any of them. I think it's better to be consistent across all rather than picking specific dogs as sometimes what upsets your dog won't be anything you'll see and it's not worth assuming everything is fine when it's not.

In the case of the lab that ran up and got growly, I'd be getting my dog's focus or redirecting him away before it escalates to the point where your dog feels her fear is justified. If the other owner isn't there to grab their dog it's also a good time to explain to them their role at the park does not end when they let their dog off. If they can't stop their dog from being aggressive, it's time to call the council as you shouldn't have to deal with that kind of behaviour when you're working so hard with your dog.

This article has a heap of good info about desensetising to other dogs: http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2...sensitizing.htm

It's very similar to what I'm doing and I've had a lot of success with it- in just 3 weeks I've got him sharing the street with other dogs and redirecting by voice alone when needed. The clicker has also been immensly useful.

EDIT:

I think the worst thing you could do is take a gamble on walking directly up to strange dogs, especially front on.

I second this. It's very confronting for a fearful dog to approach head on.

I'm beginning to introduce my dog to the idea of approaching head on now, but I'm ensuring he's not out in front eyeballing them when he does. I walk/jog backwards towards the other dog calling my boy (kinda like you do when you start teaching recalls) and click/treat all the way. This way he is still walking towards the dog, but he's focusing more on me and it's also fun for him.

Edited August 30, 2006 by jaybeece

[BrunoBella]

Hi

For a dog who has fear aggression problems, I think the worst thing you could do is take a gamble on walking directly up to strange dogs, especially front on. A better way would be to start off by meeting seasoned obedience club dogs that have no social problems, "top to tail". This is a non threatening way for both dogs to meet and at first keep the meetings quite brief, making sure you reward good behaviour. Avoid any dogs who show signs of dominance ie; tail carried high, staring matches and dogs that lean on your dogs shoulders with their neck etc. Also avoid the goofy adolecent type dogs who may not realize they are upsetting your dog until he is confident with meeting new dogs. If this did not work, I would see a behavioral specialist to properly diagnose your dogs behavior.

Thanks dogdude

I am seeing a behaviouralist already but wanted some stories from other people. Bella has mild fear agression and this is new in the last 6 months. Before that she had no problems with dogs on leads. Bella is fine off lead and meets and greets dogs she like nicely. This is just a minor issue now.

I will avoid head on meetings was just not sure how to get from walking around all other dogs to being able to walk past them all again!

[BrunoBella]

Most of the time for my dog it's either the dog's size or eye contact. If they come tearing up to him it definately doesn't help either as he becomes defensive a lot quicker.

I'm in the same position as you, but instead of trying to figure out which dogs he won't like I work on the assumption that he won't like any of them. I think it's better to be consistent across all rather than picking specific dogs as sometimes what upsets your dog won't be anything you'll see and it's not worth assuming everything is fine when it's not.

In the case of the lab that ran up and got growly, I'd be getting my dog's focus or redirecting him away before it escalates to the point where your dog feels her fear is justified. If the other owner isn't there to grab their dog it's also a good time to explain to them their role at the park does not end when they let their dog off. If they can't stop their dog from being aggressive, it's time to call the council as you shouldn't have to deal with that kind of behaviour when you're working so hard with your dog.

This article has a heap of good info about desensetising to other dogs: http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2...sensitizing.htm

It's very similar to what I'm doing and I've had a lot of success with it- in just 3 weeks I've got him sharing the street with other dogs and redirecting by voice alone when needed. The clicker has also been immensly useful.

EDIT:

I think the worst thing you could do is take a gamble on walking directly up to strange dogs, especially front on.

I second this. It's very confronting for a fearful dog to approach head on.

I'm beginning to introduce my dog to the idea of approaching head on now, but I'm ensuring he's not out in front eyeballing them when he does. I walk/jog backwards towards the other dog calling my boy (kinda like you do when you start teaching recalls) and click/treat all the way. This way he is still walking towards the dog, but he's focusing more on me and it's also fun for him.

Thanks Jabeece

I like the assumption of bella not liking any dogs. that's the same principle as safe motorcycle riding

The lab was unfortunately my neighbours dog who had escaped her yard. The situation was worsened as I was walking Bruno the pup as well. He slipped his collar so I had no time to redirect as I would usually do. I try not to get mad at all the offlead dogs I meet. Bella will not be going off lead until I am sure of her - we are doing TID on a long lead which is progressing nicely.

Thanks for all the reading, can't wait to have a go and try some new ideas

[MonElite]

I could probably write a book on what not to do with a fear agro dog, unfortunatelly.

I have always wondered why my dog was agro. It is most surprising that YESTARDAY I found out that he was attacked by another dog at a show when he was a puppy (I wasnt present) I dont think I was ever told about it by the person that took care of him at the time.

I have through wrong training methods made him 100 fold worse no doubt, but I guess now I know how it all has started.

But if I was to give one piece of advice that would be - have your eyes open (those at the back of your head as well) think ahead and avoid situation even if it means your personal ego will suffer.

[jaybeece]

But if I was to give one piece of advice that would be - have your eyes open (those at the back of your head as well) think ahead and avoid situation even if it means your personal ego will suffer.

And be prepared to look silly/crazy if needed I get funny looks with a squirty tomato sauce bottle filled with pureed cat/baby/dog food (great for speedy treating) in one hand and a clicker in the other. Extra cool points should also be given for my sauce bottle holster/treat bag from the $2 shop.

If I had a dollar for every time I've explained "No, I'm not squirting tomato sauce at him, it's baby food...actually, that's not a whole lot better is it?" I'd have...well, more money Plus I do miss his mouth sometimes so I end up with splattered food on my shoes and often on my jeans.

[BrunoBella]

I have developed eyes in the back of my head. Just harder walking with the pup as wekk. Have decided to walk them separately again until I get this sorted.

I love the squirty bottle for treats and have no problems looking silly. I already have the entire neighbourhood out on the street smiling at me with bella walking nicely on her lead and bruno spinning around us in circles. Have got very good with spinning to switch the leads to opposite sides On cold windy nights I walk with a beanie, two scarves, my gardening goggles (cold air makes my eyes water) and my headlight torch I have never been shy or retiring....

All of Bellas problems were caused by an attack and my inexperience. Now most are fixed just need to fix the last one.

I am now much more confident and am using a prong instead of a halti so I have much better control of Bella.

Thanks again for all the advise

[MonElite]

the squirting bottle made me so did the head torch :D

My experience is that treats were complety of no value when it came to treating my dos agression, so I have never carried any with me, let alone a squirting bottle

I see a dog I cross the road, simple as that.

[jaybeece]

the squirting bottle made me so did the head torch :D

My experience is that treats were complety of no value when it came to treating my dos agression, so I have never carried any with me, let alone a squirting bottle

I see a dog I cross the road, simple as that.

Actually I did have the same problem as you when I started out trying food with my dog's aggression. If there's a scale of how willing a dog is to work for food that looks like this:

pet rock|----------------------------------------------|labrador

My boy would be awfully close to pet rock However, he still likes food, he's just not all that motivated by it. The click/treat still works wonders though because he's still getting a good thing (food & praise) for staying cool around other dogs.

I'm going to start fasting him once a week as well to try and make him a little more enthusiastic

[haven]

I've only skimmed throught this thread so forgive me if this had already been asked and answered:

As you state that Steve (K9 Force) has already seen your dog, have you put these questions to him?

If you are having trouble identifying what triggers your dogs aggrssive reaction, you should consider keeping a diary. Record every incidence of meeting another dog and your dogs reaction. Include as much information you can, like the age, sex, colour, size, body language etc of the other dog and also things like the distance at which she reacted, her body language before during and after etc etc. Try to note things like your own feelings, body posture and reactions and those of the person leading the other dog.

This kind of thing can be very useful when having trouble identifying your dogs triggers.

As to what to do about it all, if you haven't done so already I think you should email Steve as he has actually seen your dog and been involved in the treatment process.

[Erny]

I'm going to start fasting him once a week as well to try and make him a little more enthusiastic

I haven't completely followed this thread, so not making any comments with regards to how to deal with aggression ....

But my comment here is in relation to heightening motivation for food. Rather than fasting one day a week (which is not a bad thing to do generally speaking, if your dog is in good health), why don't you use your dog's daily food rations AS THE TREATS? In other words, the treats become his daily food intake.

[BrunoBella]

I've only skimmed throught this thread so forgive me if this had already been asked and answered:

As you state that Steve (K9 Force) has already seen your dog, have you put these questions to him?

If you are having trouble identifying what triggers your dogs aggrssive reaction, you should consider keeping a diary. Record every incidence of meeting another dog and your dogs reaction. Include as much information you can, like the age, sex, colour, size, body language etc of the other dog and also things like the distance at which she reacted, her body language before during and after etc etc. Try to note things like your own feelings, body posture and reactions and those of the person leading the other dog.

This kind of thing can be very useful when having trouble identifying your dogs triggers.

As to what to do about it all, if you haven't done so already I think you should email Steve as he has actually seen your dog and been involved in the treatment process.

I am in contact with Steve about this. I was indeed trying to identify triggers in my dog and others and I just decided to keep a diary as things fall out of my head very quickly

I don't have much experience with reading dogs, and dog to dog interaction although am learning heaps every day.

Great tip.

[jaybeece]

I haven't completely followed this thread, so not making any comments with regards to how to deal with aggression ....

But my comment here is in relation to heightening motivation for food. Rather than fasting one day a week (which is not a bad thing to do generally speaking, if your dog is in good health), why don't you use your dog's daily food rations AS THE TREATS? In other words, the treats become his daily food intake.

I've been doing this the last 3 weeks, but I either haven't rationed him enough or he really doesn't want to work for food I'm also a little warey about how much "junk" he's getting in the form of treats, I can't imagine baby food is that bad, but I'd prefer that it doesn't make up too much of his diet. The pureed dog food was not appreciated too much either- whole it's fine, but all mixed together it smelt kind of strange. We're still fine tuning everything at the moment so I might look at rationing even more, we'll see how we go :D

[Erny]

Assuming your dog is in good health and is not likely to suffer from a day or two of either missing meals or receiving less than his normal ration, what I mean is to simply use his NORMAL meal AS the treats. This will alleviate your problem with regards to him being fed his usual balanced diet and your dog will learn that unless he's interested in his "meal treats" then he's lost the chance to eat that day. Might take a day or two to realise this, and it's hard when your dog initially goes around "looking" for the daily meal he's learnt to expect, but might be worth the try.

As I said - I wouldn't recommend this method to anyone if the dog is not in good health or is already too underweight. But generally speaking, a couple of days of missed meal rations won't hurt and if the method is going to work it should be shortly after that that he learns his treats ARE his meals.

ETA: I suggest this on the assumption you have no problems with your dog eating his normal food.

ETA: Oh - And I'd start this "new" concept with your dog by getting him to do stuff he already knows in an environment he does not find overly distracting. Only for as long as it takes him to be interested in the treats. Then begin pushing for higher expectations .... a little at a time.

Edited August 31, 2006 by Erny

[jaybeece]

ETA: I suggest this on the assumption you have no problems with your dog eating his normal food.

I don't mind him getting normal food for treats, however he's not keen on the smell of it pureed so it's no good in the squirt bottle and, as I discovered last night, he's shy about eating his dinner in front of me! I've never noticed before because I leave him be outside when he's eating dinner. Last night we did a training session using portions of his dinner and he flatly refused to eat each piece unless I went inside first. So...tonight we're breaking the routine because there's no way I'm letting him be stubborn about this I think it really all boils down to him just not being hungry enough, hence the fasting need.