Early Desexing - Warning To Breeders

[morgan]

Thank you Silverdog!

I have posted links to most of those studies in previous desexing threads, but I just couldn't do it yet again!

When I have done this, I'm always told that you can find studies on the internet to back up any POV, but if they aren't posted,

where is the PROOF??

[Skipy]

but as yet, there is STILL no conclusive scientific evidence that would lead us to stop this practice...... [/color] and the evidence available is biased against desexing generally and if it isn't.... it is speculative and inconclusive that early desexing is SOLEY to blame for whatever issue is being reported on at the time. You should also note that often numbers involved in studies are low therefore gaining formal and conclusive stats are an issue.

All scientific papers that others have posted, yet again but you seem to ignore have to have reasonable sized groups that are not biased in any way, so that the only variable is the one that they are talking about, ie. desexing, etc. So they accout for all other variables sucha s different breeds of dogs (or the specify that they are only looking at a particular breed),\ age, etc.

Any scientific paper published can not be biased, otherwise it is not published. In addition, it is reviewed by others in the same field in order for them to be published.

I guess for some people only conclussive evidence is for a dog to drop dead after surgery.....

[morgan]

I guess for some people only conclussive evidence is for a dog to drop dead after surgery.....

Nup - the prevailing opinion seems to be "for the greater good" - it is acceptable for a percentage of dogs to suffer or die early, rather than have unwanted pups born. It is immaterial how much they suffer, or how young they die, because this is ALWAYS preferable to the CHANCE of producing puppies.

[peibe]

I guess for some people only conclussive evidence is for a dog to drop dead after surgery.....

Nup - the prevailing opinion seems to be "for the greater good" - it is acceptable for a percentage of dogs to suffer or die early, rather than have unwanted pups born. It is immaterial how much they suffer, or how young they die, because this is ALWAYS preferable to the CHANCE of producing puppies.

Last week as I walked through the pound I had to leave pups behind because I had no-where to put them, they are going to die, all of them, now I am talking GD X Wolfhound,large breeds

BECAUSE THE CHANCE THAT THEIR PARENTS REPRODUCED HAPPENED

They are still suffering but they would not be if their purebreed parents were desexed before rehoming

Puppies should be allowed to grow up before they are desexed but humans cannot be trusted to do the right thing

[morgan]

So either way, dogs suffer.

So we have the usual ethical dilemma - is it better for much wanted and loved pets to suffer their entire lives and have no wanted or unwanted pups, or let them be desexed at a later, healthier age and euthanase healthy, unwanted pups.

Not all undesexed pups will go on to reproduce - most will be desexed at a reasonable age. Not all unwanted pups will be pts, but a percentage will.

Rescuers and some breeders say desex everything, and bad luck for those that suffer as a result, some breeders will say desex later, and bad luck for some unwanted puppies that will be pts as a result.

There is no easy solution - only suffering either way, but at least the puppies that are pts have a quick, merciful end to their suffering, as unpleasant and heartbreaking as it is.

[Livi]

OK how about this, phasing in of it being illegal for private people (ie: individuals who are not registered breeders) to advertise and/or sell puppies.

Might make BYB and irresponsible pet owners think twice !!!!

When the choice of the general public is restricted to either expensive petshop mutts, pedigree dogs from registered breeders or rescue/pound puppies we might start making a real difference.

It is FAR too easy to get a dog, that is the base of the problem, any idiot can get a dog (from the wrong sources) and there is currently nothing being done to stop it.

[Jed]

Sunny 70

OK how about this, phasing in of it being illegal for private people (ie: individuals who are not registered breeders) to advertise and/or sell puppies.

This sounds like a great idea Sunny 70, but I wonder would it cause some of the morons who produce cross bred pups to dump them if they couldn't advertise them?

Unfortunately, this is a big subject, and a big problem - and there is no "one size fits all" solution, as the govt. seems to think.

I have some issues with early desexing - anaesthesia is one - although they are becoming safer and safer. Spey incontinence is another, plus controversy about growth rates etc. However, the biggest reason is my gut instinct. Don't argue, I have learned never to argue with my gut instinct. When it says "no" I NEVER do it. It's instinctive.

However, my rescues, cat and dog all get desexed - any age - when Ive been broke, I've been able to get 5th year uni students to do it for experience, and a six pack!! ALL rescues ought to be desexed - to stop some moron getting a cheap dog, and making more, or being too idle to desex and getting more.

A different type of person takes rescues generally - and there is a larger % of them (or the ones I've seen) who I wouldn't trust to desex. Please don't read this as discrimatory - there is a huge difference between the people who buy cavvies, and the people who buy boxers too!! not worse - just different. I sell boxers to people I wouldn't even consider for a cav, ditto my rescues...which after all, have ranged from chi x, cattle x kelpie, maremma x, purebreds, to bull arab x camel (hard to home those latter ones, I had to suck up to a childhood friend to get shot of the last one, but they love her).

We all want the same end here - a huge reduction in the number of dogs in the pound. Instead of arguing about early desexing, which not turn our collective giant intellect to trying to solve the problem?

I've had my 2 cents worth. Anyone else got any ideas which don't involve mandatory desexing of all pets?

[Livi]

We haven't factored in the third and fourth type of person

#1 Type who buys from Registered Breeder

#2 Type who buys Rescue Mutt (pure or cross)

#3 Type who buys from Pet Shop

#4 Type who buys from BYB

I think the main problems come from type #3 and #4..obviously from #2 the problem is eliminated by early desexing.

[peibe]

Something to think of too, it is far too easy to become a registered breeder and not all registered breeders are great

Look in the rescue thread at the 2 Cocker bitches dumped at a pound up here when they were past breeding age

And Jed you would be surprised at the amount of calls I get from people who want a SWF rescue dog undesexed, they are cheap. I also think it is dangerous for apprentice vets to be doing desexing, that could cause huge problems

Looks like there is no easy solution

[gareth]

I also think it is dangerous for apprentice vets to be doing desexing, that could cause huge problems

How else will they learn?

[peibe]

Doing desexing on very young pups that is?

Sorry I was not more specific

[Rappie]

I also think it is dangerous for apprentice vets to be doing desexing, that could cause huge problems

I guess this is a little off topic...

Been reading the thread with interest but I couldn't let this pass - apprentice? Veterinary science isn't a trade - I'm not sure who you are referring to with this comment. Veterinary students desperate for surgical experience on an animal that is living and breathing, performing surgery under the very close, very direct supervision of an experienced surgeon? Or new graduates (like myself) with a professional qualification and skills and knowledge that require constant development, performing surgical procedures under the wing of a more experienced mentor?

In terms of possible surgical complications (rather than anaesthetic complications), to be blunt, it's probably better for inexperienced (which is completely distinct from incompetent) surgeons to perform speys and castrates on younger patients - much less blood, much quicker surgical time and much better recoveries.

Edited August 28, 2006 by Rappie

[helen]

There's a lot of sub topics popping up here .

.....................................

I dont desex my pups before they go home and a large part of that is that there isnt one vet in my area who believes they should .

I don't think it is fair to blame the breeder for this to happen. Unfortunately there is so much pressure put on breeders now to desex pups before they go to their new homes, without consideration for the pup itself. This story probably demonstrates one example of why it is wrong.

I did ask my vets (who's opinion I trust 100%), they do not like to desex early and recommend around 6 months.

This is proof enough for me and no pups will ever be desexed at 8 weeks that I have bred.

[peibe]

However, my rescues, cat and dog all get desexed - any age - when Ive been broke, I've been able to get 5th year uni students to do it for experience, and a six pack!! ALL rescues ought to be desexed - to stop some moron getting a cheap dog, and making more, or being too idle to desex and getting more.

This is what I was remarking on

[Rappie]

I understand which comment you were remarking on, but I'm not sure I understand your particular concerns. It's not as though students are let loose with a bottle of ether and a couple of rusty scalpel blades

[peibe]

Where is this being done? Obviously Uni students do not have a clinic to use and if a 6 pack is the form of payment is a kitchen table to operating room

I am not trying to start an argument here but it seems a bit slap happy and seems to be perfectly acceptable for rescue puppies to be desexed young but god forbid a purebreed puppy suffer the same fate. Rescue puppies are OK for Uni Students to learn on?

[Cordelia]

Rescue puppies are OK for Uni Students to learn on?

The vet students at Camden campus do the desexing for the pound and very rarely are there complications and it has nothing to do with them being students.

The surgeries are performed in typical manner with the usual sterile equipment under the direct supervision of an experienced vet surgeon.

If they offered our guys free desexing (as they do for the pound)... I would trust them completely to care for my babies during and post surgery.

How else are students to learn and be competant surgeons if they are not able to access animals? Desexing is the most routine of ops in any clinic and they need the experience prior to joining those clinics.

[peibe]

I am not saying that vet students do not have to learn you have all missed my point

I think that if vet students are being paid by 6 pack to desex a pup, is something to think on

LIKE where are the pups being desexed in a clinic or somewhere else

I know when I pay a mechanic a six pack to fix my car he does it in my front yard

Now do you all get it?

[Rappie]

I get what you mean, however the situation you are referring to in particular really needs to be outlined by the poster.

I desexed my own dog for a token cost paid to my employer - I did it with constant anaesthetic monitoring, full surgical pack etc, same degree of care as any other spey.

I have previously desexed a male cat in return for software for the clinic owner.

I have honestly been asked by my bf's mother if I could bring drugs and instruments to her place to desex her two female cats one weekend and had to stop laughing before I could finally let out a decisive "NO". Being paid in a non monetary "currency" and doing something properly aren't mutually exclusive, although I can understand that potentially that could be the case.

Edit: Wanted to be less specific.

Edited August 29, 2006 by Rappie

[ravensmyst00]

I own a large breed dog.

At the age of 3 months I had my vet hounding me to have him desexed as soon as possible even after I explained to him my dog is a show dog and will not be desexed. I am still receiving reminder notices to book him in for desexing.

When I am in a position to start breeding - I will be discussing all options to ensure those pups sold as pets can not be bred with.

Possible ways to ensure this happens -

1 - Charge more for pet quality pups so that it includes the cost of desexing and pay for the operation when the pups reach 6 months.

2- offer refund via desexing contracts - these would not stand up in court unfortunately and if people didnt want to desex you have no legal standing to make them desex their animal.

3 - have the pups sterilised via vasectomy or having their tubes tied.

4 - early desexing at 12 weeks.

As a future responsible breeder I will do whatever is necessary to ensure my pet quality pups are desexed in a timely manner. I will also ensure that any show quality pups that do not end up in the show ring or end up with faults are desexed as well.

To me it is up to the breeder to ensure their puppy owners are responsible and if that means desexing early then that is what needs to be done.