Early Desexing - Warning To Breeders

[my_sibe_owns_me]

I also work iin a groom shop.....the none desexed dogs are assholes who gett he rest 'scummy'

Huh??? Please explain. :p

sorry had to type fast so I could yell at the dog!

'I also work in a groom shop where I see many desexed and none desexed dogs, I find that the none desex males tend to go a bit humping happy while the desex males (At weeks) tend to do nothing

Edited August 23, 2006 by my_sibe_owns_me

[morgan]

Are you for real!!???? My English mastiff came into heat at 6mos!!!!! As did my sibe! So large breed dogs CAN and WILL come into heat at 6 mos of age

As for the cancer bit its all BS.....your dog/bitch will either get it or not get it....you can not prevent it

Apologies - none of the large breeds I have owned or known have come in season before 12 mths, many have been 15-18 mths. Did you happen to notice in any of my posts that I DO advocate surgical sterilisation to prevent puppies?

As for not being able to prevent cancer - are you for real? :p Not really big on research? Cancer is NEVER just the luck of the draw - there are so many factors involved, some of which we can influence, others we can't.

[my_sibe_owns_me]

Are you for real!!???? My English mastiff came into heat at 6mos!!!!! As did my sibe! So large breed dogs CAN and WILL come into heat at 6 mos of age

As for the cancer bit its all BS.....your dog/bitch will either get it or not get it....you can not prevent it

Apologies - none of the large breeds I have owned or known have come in season before 12 mths, many have been 15-18 mths. Did you happen to notice in any of my posts that I DO advocate surgical sterilisation to prevent puppies?

As for not being able to prevent cancer - are you for real? Not really big on research? Cancer is NEVER just the luck of the draw - there are so many factors involved, some of which we can influence, others we can't.

Just because you do not know of any large breed dogs coming in season before 15mo does not mean it does not happen......I see it alot.

Then what are you saying? That the owner should know before the pup goes in heat and get it fixed so it doesnt have pups or cancer?? :p Do you really think this works?

On really? Then inform me how cancer is not just the luck of the draw?

As for the website posted....... some people are soooooo foolish

Desexing your pup 'later' will NOT change the out come of cancer.

[morgan]

On really? Then inform me how cancer is not just the luck of the draw?

As for the website posted....... :p some people are soooooo foolish

Desexing your pup 'later' will NOT change the out come of cancer.

Read this - Osteosarcoma - there are many, many other scientific studies on cancer and desexing in dogs.

[my_sibe_owns_me]

How about hands on.......I have never seen a diffence (cancer wise) between the two.

Call me foolish but I dont think people can handle it.

[Kirty]

Cordelia, you crack me up! The link almost made me laugh until I realised they were serious - now I'm just scared!! Hey why not post that link about people 'satisfying' their dogs while we're at it?? :p

For the record, my grandparents have always owned undesexed male pedigree large breed dogs (dalmations and dobes). They were/are ALL humpers. One died of bloat while in a boarding kennel, another got it but did not die from it. The current dog has had numerous growths and problems related to not being desexed (can't remember exactly what - prostate problems I think) and has had to be desexed anyway (at 9 years of age).

Spaying or neutering your pet is the worst thing you can do for their overall health. Basically, when a dog is subjected to theses radical surgeries, their owner just started killing their dog slowly.

- Aren't there studies around that show on average, desexed pets live longer? What about bitches getting pyo?? Coming into heat after heat and not being mated? And having all the other 'caring owners' dogs jumping your fence to get to your bitch? Sounds like FUN!!

Who wants a fat, non-active, sexually non-descript tube, devoid of it's original self and abilities, living with us, that serves no purpose except to eat and crap.

- WTH?? How does a dog's purpose differ if its desexed or not??

[Skipy]

This is a bit off topic, but since there are always so many pro-early or in general desexing arguments here are some scientific facts.

I did post this before in breeders forum so moderators can remove it if they think its unnecessary

1. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001 Jul 1;219(1):51-6. Links

Effect of gonadectomy on subsequent development of age-related cognitive impairment in dogs.

Hart BL.

Behavior Service, Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis, CA 95616, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To determine whether gonadectomy predisposes dogs to development of age-related behavioral changes linked to cognitive impairment. DESIGN: Cohort study. ANIMALS: 29 sexually intact male dogs, 63 spayed female dogs, and 47 castrated male dogs 11 to 14 years old. PROCEDURE: Information on possible impairments in 4 behavioral categories linked to cognitive impairment (orientation in the home and yard, social interactions, house training, and sleep-wake cycle) was obtained from owners of the dogs by use of a structured telephone interview format. A second interview was performed 12 to 18 months after the initial interview, and differences in responses were evaluated. RESULTS: Sexually intact male dogs were significantly less likely than neutered dogs to progress from mild impairment (i.e., impairment in 1 category) to severe impairment (i.e., impairment in > or = 2 categories) during the time between the first and second interviews. This difference was not attributable to differences in ages of the dogs, duration of follow-up, or the owners' perceptions of the dogs' overall health. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Results suggest that the presence of circulating testosterone in aging sexually intact male dogs may slow the progression of cognitive impairment, at least among dogs that already have signs of mild impairment. Estrogens would be expected to have a similar protective role in sexually intact female dogs; unfortunately, too few sexually intact female dogs were available for inclusion in the study to test this hypothesis. There may be a need to evaluate possible methods for counteracting the effects of loss of sex hormones in gonadectomized dogs.

2. http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/b...tionindogs.html

3. Clinical and pathologic features of prostatic adenocarcinoma in sexually intact and castrated dogs: 31 cases (1970-1987) Ford W. Bell, DVM; Jeffery S. Klausner, DVM, MS; David W. Hayden, DVM, PhD; Daniel A. Feeney, DVM, MS; Shirley D. Johnston, DVM, PhD; Dept. of Small Animal Clinical Sci; College of Veterinary Medicine; University of Minnesota; 1352 Boyd Ave.; St. Paul, MN 55108

"Castrated dogs had a 2.38 times greater risk of developing prostatic cancer than intact dogs when compared with the hospital population."

4. Prostatic disorders in the dog. Anim Reprod Sci 60-61[]:405-15 2000 Jul 2 36 Refs Johnston SD, Kamolpatana K, Root-Kustritz MV, Johnston GR "Two studies suggest that risk of prostatic adenocarcinoma is increased in neutered, compared to intact male dogs."

[Cordelia]

Estrogens would be expected to have a similar protective role in sexually intact female dogs; unfortunately, too few sexually intact female dogs were available for inclusion in the study to test this hypothesis. There may be a need to evaluate possible methods for counteracting the effects of loss of sex hormones in gonadectomized dogs.

Hypothesis is NOT scientific fact. :p

[morgan]

Estrogens would be expected to have a similar protective role in sexually intact female dogs; unfortunately, too few sexually intact female dogs were available for inclusion in the study to test this hypothesis. There may be a need to evaluate possible methods for counteracting the effects of loss of sex hormones in gonadectomized dogs.

Hypothesis is NOT scientific fact. :p

The hypothesis only related to the role of estrogen in intact females - the benefit of testosterone in intact males was established.

[Skipy]

Estrogens would be expected to have a similar protective role in sexually intact female dogs; unfortunately, too few sexually intact female dogs were available for inclusion in the study to test this hypothesis. There may be a need to evaluate possible methods for counteracting the effects of loss of sex hormones in gonadectomized dogs.

Hypothesis is NOT scientific fact. :p

Which is why THEY clearly state that they EXPECT, ie. they make a distinction between males for which THEY DO HAVE A PROOF and finish by saying that it might be true in females, MIGHT being the key word. I dont see where you get that they are saying its a fact.

[ellz]

But aren't you kind of missing the point? Morgan it is YOUR thread and relates to EARLY desexing...not desexing in general which you have already stated you are in favour of. So what is it? Desexing or NOT desexing?? :p

[Skipy]

But aren't you kind of missing the point? Morgan it is YOUR thread and relates to EARLY desexing...not desexing in general which you have already stated you are in favour of. So what is it? Desexing or NOT desexing?? :p

Well I did say that it is a bit "off topic" when I posted that info, I stated it because people started throwing all the good points about desexing in general, nothing to do with morgan and what he posted at all.

[morgan]

But aren't you kind of missing the point? Morgan it is YOUR thread and relates to EARLY desexing...not desexing in general which you have already stated you are in favour of. So what is it? Desexing or NOT desexing?? :p

Well.... er...... I am against blanket desexing of ALL companion dogs. This thread was in relation to early desexing, which I find totally abhorrent under any circumstances, but the link I posted that was anti-desexing in general opened the whole debate when Cordelia responded criticising it.

So I guess I led the thread astray!

I am in favour of surgical sterilisation, followed up by later desexing only where absolutely necessary - for instance where pet owners are incapable of keeping their dogs on their properties, or with multi dog aggression issues (bearing in mind that desexing doesn't necessarily cure these problems)

[Trisven13]

I'm all for early desexing and can only say good on the breeder for being responsible. Yes it is a damn shame for the owner of this particular dog that she has health issues but I still stand by early desexing. If more breeders were as responsible as those on this site maybe it wouldn't be such an issue but we all know that they're not.

[morgan]

Had to take a kitten to my vet tonight, so thought I'd speak to him about these options. He was aghast that I would even consider putting puppies through this!

When I explained that it wasn't for me, but for those that feel "responsible" breeders must desex at 8 weeks to prevent entire puppies falling into the wrong hands, he hit the roof! Wanted to know who the hell was so irresponsible that they could even think about desexing a puppy before 6 mths of age! His attitude was that if anyone was so unsure of the quality of ownership the puppy was going to, then they shouldn't be breeding anyway.

He then expressed disgust at the current AVA push to make early desexing mandatory, as well as rescue organisations doing it to very young puppies - said it was simply criminal, and that he would never perform any kind of desexing or sterilisation procedures on anything younger than 6 mths.

So, no info from him! :p

[KitKat]

Put puppy thru it? within two hours or so the little blighters are up running around and into everything as if nothing had happened!

Mind you i had my 6 month old male large breed done and he wasn't himself for about 24 hours! Not to mention having to keep him away from his stitches for the two weeks or whatever it was!

As to being 'criminal' - that's a lot of rot...many vets won't do early desexing because they don't like to. I've even known vets to say bitches should be allowed their first season before being desexed, others even saying that bitches should be allowed a litter before being desexed! That last one to me is more criminal!

[Coolibah Coolies]

On the other end of the scale - my vet will desex anything she also works in a low income predominantly indegenous community and sees the result of undesexed/unvaccinated dogs every day.

[peibe]

Morgan do you rescue?

I just had my 5 month old pup desexed, he is acting like it never happened

When my 3 year old bitch got desexed she was sick for a week

The younger they are the quicker they bounce back.

In the rescue work I do I have only ever had a problem with older bitches being desexed, never young ones

Thanks for the laugh Jacq, I agree

[petmezz]

por puppy and family. to the breeders and people who sead send the dog back what %$*&! what do you think the breeder would do to a defect puppy with continuas health problems due to the defect. and no bout the family who have this dog don't wan't the dog to go back to them and face what ever the breeder sees fit.

i rember hearing or reading some whear that the vets know that their is a slight increase in problems from early desexing. and i also know that most vets will tell the client about this.

i persionaly don't like the idear of desexing an animal befor 6 months but accept 4 months at the earliest. i wonder what happens to dogs that havent allowed to mature. the sexual hormones do have other uses in development other then just reproducing young has their been any studdy on early desexing that has observed the dogs through to death? noting all medical problems?

[Cordelia]

He then expressed disgust at the current AVA push to make early desexing mandatory, as well as rescue organisations doing it to very young puppies - said it was simply criminal

Yep... we're a pack of crims...

Wanted to know who the hell was so irresponsible that they could even think about desexing a puppy before 6 mths of age!

ME!! and the vast majority of rescue folk... and the vets we use!! Would he like a list??

I'm sure we could do one up and you can give it to him. He can then contact us and tell us himself just how irresponsible we all are. :p

Please make sure that you also ask him to contact ALL of the highly responsible owners out there who don't desex their animals and then bring all those unwanted puppies to US for re-homing. You know... those ones that WE prevent from ending up in the same situations their Dams were in!!