Early Desexing - Warning To Breeders

[Trisven13]

But for every one of you there are probably three or more who won't and that is the problem. If the world was full of responsible dog owners then rescuers and breeders would not have to carefully screen who they adopt to but its not and desexing at 8 weeks means that we don't get fooled and add to the population of dogs we need to help.

[Cordelia]

And I'd like to add that I never turned this into a Rescue vs Breeder thing.

I DON'T have an issue with Registered Breeders at all. Obviously there are good and bad in both rescue and R.Breeders but I honestly believe that there are more ethical and responsible breeders than not.

QUOTE(peibe @ 25th Aug 2006 - 09:58 PM)

Jacq I love you, you managed to say exactly what I wanted to,cheers

If Registered Breeders interviewed their new prospective owners as well as rescue there would be far less pups out there

No failures in Rescue huh, no bouncing Rescue dogs huh, what a load of bunkum, Rescue dogs always go to permanent loving homes......

You always have to turn in into a RESCUE VS BREEDERS thing, get over it.

Responsible breeders get bashed here as much as the BYBs, it is what some of the recue folk do best.

I breed, I rescue, I desex, but I don't early desex...get over that too!

Thanks Piebe... but I also think that MOST registered breeders actually ask more questions of their prospective puppy owners than a number of rescues... from my experience anyway.

Of course we get the occasioanal dog back. I've had 4 this year. (out of over 300 rehomed last year I don't think that's too bad). But like Trish said... we take our back. Most breeders I've dealt with won't or can't take them back..... that isn't breeder bashing... it's fact.

I do think that registered breeders get bashed here but it isn't anywhere near the same level of someone posting as a BYB...... and whilst I agree that there are SOME rescue folk who take potshots at breeders for culling etc, I'm not one of them.

I've been a smart arse regarding some posts and been sarcastic.... but it has little to do with the posters being registered breeders.... more to do with pulling apart certain posts to show that there is logic missing and in particular to discredit the totally anti-desexing site that was posted early on.

The thing is, Rescue people and Breeders want pretty much the same for the pups they place into good homes. But as much as you Morgan and others who agree are not believers in early desexing...... in order for rescue to be seen to practice what we preach regarding indescriminate breeding practices..... we have NO choice but to take an educated and calculated risk regarding early desexing.

People DO come to us thinking they can get a cheap breeding bitch or cheap stud dog..... especially if we ever get a purebred adult or DD of breeding age into care or a swf pup. We don't have the luxury of NOT taking the risk to early desex.

I do however, still take offence at the suggestions that we don't care for our pups as much or that people expect our pups to have issues either as a youngster or later in life just because they are rescues. That is blatantly untrue and incredibly unfair and whether it stems from an elitist attitude or from a total lack of understanding of exactly what we do or refusal to see the fact that whilst we may not have researched pedigrees and waited months for a litter, we take care of our babies every bit as much as a registered breeder does and still take pride in handing over a healthy, well adjusted pup to a family. Just because we can't know the genetic history of the vast majority of our babies doesn't make them any less or more likely to have genetic problems (or any other problems) later in life.

We desex early to remove the choice to breed from lovely people who deserve a lovely pup but have no place breeding... regardless of the reason why they want to breed. Some pups WILL develop medical problems due to early desexing..... but as yet, there is STILL no conclusive scientific evidence that would lead us to stop this practice.

Yes, there is evidence to show desexed bitches can develop spay incontinence.... but this is at any age, not just from early desexing.

As for cruitiate issues in large breeds who are desexed early..... they are large breeds... they are prone to cruciate problems regardless of desexing because of their size.

We ALL have stories showing issues or no issues.

This isn't a breeder vs rescue debate..... this is animal welfare (NOT animal liberation) vs uneducated owner debate. We choose to remove the choice and guarantee accidents or intended matings don't occur and WE shouldn't be persecuted for that either.

[peibe]

OK, I apologise for my outburst against registered breeders, but I am meeting far to many through rescue work, that will not take a dog back they breed, or will not even help me rehome a dog they breed, it shits me

This thread is about early desexing, and while I will keep saying I do not like it, I do it as I see no alternative

And sorry to correct you Morgan but I have only ever had one dog back, and that was due to being lied too, and the only time I did not 100% trust my gut

[Steve]

There's a lot of sub topics popping up here .

All of us know there are good breeders and bad breeders and we also know that not all rescue people desex their dogs before they go to new homes and who wont take them back or give a hoot about what comes next .Just as some people breed for nothing but money other rescue for the same reason. And just as some breeders are ignorant of the consequences of what they do and dont do its the same with some who work in rescue . I met a woman this week who is the local rescue lady who never desexes or cares where the dog goes as long as she feels she has saved it from its old owners who didnt want it any more. I met her because she came here to my house to ask me if I wanted what looked like a malt cross female which had obviously already had at least one litter ."Just thought I might be able to use her for breeding"

Everyone, breeders, dog owners and rescue people should know there are potential risks involved with early desexing and make the call based on knowledge and assessment of the risks in relation to the positives .In order to do this our own experience , ethics and philosophies will come into play but part of that should be knowing all of the potentials .

I balance my decision on knowing Ive done a lot to cut down the chances of someone not breeding with a dog they shouldnt ,of 30 years experience in sending home entire dogs and how many have done the wrong thing and what I know could be health issues either way both for and against . Everyone will make their own decisions accordingly but part of that cant be pretending their isnt risks . I dont desex my pups before they go home and a large part of that is that there isnt one vet in my area who believes they should .

[morgan]

And sorry to correct you Morgan but I have only ever had one dog back, and that was due to being lied too, and the only time I did not 100% trust my gut

Where did I say anything about dogs being returned - I DID say that many rescues wouldn't have problems.

I have rehomed quite a number of dogs for people over the years, I was lucky that all were already desexed, I have worked on dodgy temperaments and socialisation - that shar pei I rehomed last year was looking at being pts for biting someone - he is now a delightful, adored pet.

I have ALWAYS offered to take back dogs that I have bred, for any reason, and earlier this year even paid a large sum to get back an older bitch I had bred, along with a boy that I successfully rehomed (his breeder wasn't interested), just to prevent them from falling into the wrong hands - she will never go anywhere again.

Have had the early desexing conversation with three different vets this week, one of which sees a huge number of breeders' dogs. ALL agreed that it was probably necessary for rescues, unfortunately, but should be avoided by registered breeders, ESPECIALLY of large breeds, as there were so many potential problems. This morning I was asking about vasectomies for large breed pups, so that they could remain entire for 2 or 3 years to allow full development - this vet said the problems he had seen with urinary blockages caused by inadequate development of genitalia through early desexing in breeds such as Danes etc was just heartbreaking. He felt that vasectomies would be a simpler op for boys, with fewer risks, once he had gotten over the surprise at being asked about them.

He felt that hysterectomies, leaving ovaries intact, on very young pups would incur even more losses than early desexing, due to spending more time under anaesthetic - maybe 1 or 2% more. I didn't ask him what the expected loss rate from early desexing was, as he was pushed for time, but I did wonder. He was adamant that bitches really shouldn't be desexed before 6 mths if at all avoidable. When I mentioned the akita, he said this result was not uncommon, but there were other problems that could occur.

I dont desex my pups before they go home and a large part of that is that there isnt one vet in my area who believes they should .

Having just done a poll on vets in my area, I don't have a single vet who will do it!

[~Myschafis~]

I had no problem in being a responsible owner for those 3 extra months.

But too many people do!

[Jed]

Whilst I am not denigrating rescue, or rescuers, I would like to point out, from the perspective of a registered breeder, and a rescuer, that there are obvious differences.

The difference in rescue dogs/pups vs registered pups is all in the expectations of the new owners.

People who want reg. pups have higher expectations - they want to see health tests, pedigrees, ancestors, and to know that the breeder is with them. They will search all manner of websites to find ancestors, they pore over photos, they revel in seeing a hoary old grandma tottering around at 12! They are happy to pay for that. Should something go wrong, it is usually ALL the breeder's fault, from house training problems, grooming, pulls on the lead, to fell down dead at 15 years... "what about your health guarantee??"

With rescue dogs - buyers are aware that there is little history, in fact, even the breed may not be known, and they accept a dog which needs them --- and they don't pay as much either. They wll then more readily accept there could be a problem with the dog, and do not automatically blame the rescuer.

I personally would not do anything to my pups which I even remotely though could or might lead to any problems ... I don't vaccinate with anything except C3 for that very reason.

If mandatory desexing becomes law, there will be no apparent problems, or obvious reduction in the gene pool for some years - about 10, I reckon. But there will, over time, be a reduction in the gene pool, and those who are strongly advocating early desexing for dogs not kept in registered breeders premises ought to be considering the long term good of the dog world. There is plenty of evidence of breeders selling an entire dog on the condition it remains entire in case if need --- and the need is often there!!

I find the number of dogs dumped extremely distressing, but mandatory desexing seems to me to be another of the government's "slap a bit of jam on a piece of rotten bread and no one will notice" hasty legislations which in the end will benefit no one except those who espouse the PETA cause, and make no mistake, they are earnestly working towards their ends. A lot more earnestly than breeders are working to stop them.

The solution is simple - ALL pups must be microchipped prior to sale, as they are in NSW, with the name/address/phone no of the owner, and the breeders name/address/phone, AND the breeder's driver's licence number. So that the breeder can be traced years into the future.

Should the dog end up in the pound, the breeder should be asked to take the dog and rehome it or keep it. There would be no charge for advising the breeder it was in the pound. If the breeder could not/would not take it back, they would be asked to contribute to its upkeep in the pound.

Responsible breeders would be delighted to receive a call, and the opportunity to take the dog back. The others - including huge puppy farms who sell via pet shops - would, I feel, think carefully about what they were doing when 100 odd of their production lobbed up on their doorstep in a couple of years .... and kept doing it.

Over a couple of years, that would see an enormous reduction in pound dogs - because breeders would stop breeding them if they were going to get them back.

That doesn't solve the problem of idiots who have a bitch, don't desex it, and it has a litter or two.

Most breeders know others in other states who would take their dogs and rehome them if it became necessary.

What mandatory desexing will do is cause the responsible breeders to stop. I will, because I don't think it is always in the best interests of the dog, and I would like to see further research done on it. A lot of others will stop for the same reason. That will then leave fewer registered/responsible breeders and more of the other sort.

It's not too hard to ensure the home you find for your pup/rescue dog is a lifetime one, by carefully checking the prospective purchaser. Like everyone else, I have the odd failure, not many - and I have an agreement that the dog must be rehomed to my satisfaction, or come back. If I have to rehome it, I have more resources to do that than the average pet owner, and due to long practice, feel I am better able to assess the new owner.

[RottnBullies]

Excellant post Jed

Edited August 26, 2006 by alwaysfullybully

[peibe]

Great post Jed but microchipping does nothing in NSW, because a) it is not policed properly and b) not many breeders take back their dogs

[Livi]

Good points Jed

Sadly it is too easy to ignore the microchipping laws in NSW.

I know someone who just bought a pup from "a breeder of 14 years" no papers or microchip

Yes BYB but the average GP don't know/understand the difference

Nice looking pup and parents to my uneducated eye (I've seen pics but am not qualified to judge the quality)

I don't really think there is an easy answer to the problems of dumpage and overpopulation.

Or rather any easy answers will be expensive ones and councils aren't willing or able to fund them

[Jed]

Peibe

Great post Jed but microchipping does nothing in NSW, because a) it is not policed properly and b) not many breeders take back their dogs

Agree Peibe - the first problem needs more enforcement - maybe by councils when annual registrations become due? ie - "microchip number"? on council registration forms. And, perhaps some enforcement via checking the odd ad in the paper, and publicising that ads will be checked, and fines issued.

If the first problem was addressed, and microchipping as I suggested became law, breeders would have no choice .... and I think they would stop breeding. I know some breeders will not take dogs back, and we need to change this.

Sunny70

I don't really think there is an easy answer to the problems of dumpage and overpopulation.

I don't either, but I don't think the answer will be found by the government taking advice from the people who are now advising them, including animal lib --- it will simply be a case of cobbling up quick fix laws to keep the public happy, without really addressing the problem.

BSL was brought in as a "quick fix" for dog attacks. Keep the public happy. Not only has it not reduced dog attacks, it has caused untold grief to people and dogs which would NEVER have caused a problem.

It is a difficult question. The obvious answer would be for NO ONE to breed pups for which there were no homes. And to sell e pups only to people who had genuine empathy for dogs, and who were committed to making the dog a part of the family, not a hairy accessory dragging itself around the back yard.

I wish!!

I have given this a lot of thought - and I can't see any other solution which might work without causing a lot of unforseen longterm problems - to a minority group. Once the microchipping solution did work, there would not be as many dogs in pounds.

Also, education in the key. I am not a fan of the RSPCA, but their long term education on desexing has worked. 10 -15 years ago, no puppy buyer initiated conversations about desexing. Now 90% of them bring it up, and state they wish to have their pet desexed, which is wonderful

[Livi]

It just seems that laws get written but absolutely NOTHING is done to enforce them.

(microchipping that is)

[peibe]

NSW has lifetime registration, microchipping but it is not working. Council Rangers never do a door knock to check if dogs are chipped or registered

The Government does not care, it would cost too much money

[Jed]

Peibe

The Government does not care, it would cost too much money

And - no votes in it. Their answer would be "we brought the law in - councils can now enforce it. " Councils will not enforce it, due to, as you rightly point out, the cost. Pounds and the way animal laws are enforced are entrenched, and no one wants to put in the hard yards to change, because of the initial expense and work involved.

So, they will bring in more laws, without giving it much thought. Those laws are partially driven by PETA supporters on RSPCA and animal welfare boards, and will, in the future, directly impact on responsible breeders producing decent purebred dogs. Most of the laws we have now disadvantage purebred breeders, whilst advantaging puppy farmers.

It would be easier for me to get a licence to keep 400 bitches, as an agricultural enterprise, than to get a permit to keep 8 dogs as members of the family. And - the checks following approval would be less.

PETA etc doesn't care, their stated long term goals are to stop the keeping of pets.

They wil succeed.

Governments are so facile, interested only in the next election. Peter Batty is currently poncing about on TV (election on 9/9), telling everyone about his faaantaastic plans for a water grid. What was he doing 5 years ago, when blind Freddy could see there would be NO WATER because 100 people a day were moving to Queensland. The water supply is finite. Why wasn't he DOING something about a bloody water grid 5 years ago? Because he is only interested in his political future, not the future of the state, or the people. It is the people who have to wear the results of politicians loony toon decisions. Don't ask me about the power, the hospitals, or the ambulance service

GRRR

[poodlefan]

My Sibe:

IF I have a bitch that is JUST a pet she will NEVER see her first season!! Whats the piont if you are just gonna get her fixed anyways? Do you really want to put up with the temperment, bleeding, trying to keep her away from males ect........

The point My Sibe is this. There are three desexed bitches in my house at the moment. Two were spayed before their first season and one was spayed after. The two earlier spays suffer from hormonal incontinence and the later spay doesn't. I'm not the only person to have noted that bitches spayed after their first season don't seem to develop the problem as often.

[Skipy]

We desex early to remove the choice to breed from lovely people who deserve a lovely pup but have no place breeding... regardless of the reason why they want to breed. Some pups WILL develop medical problems due to early desexing..... but as yet, there is STILL no conclusive scientific evidence that would lead us to stop this practice.

There is conclussive scientific evidence but people just choose to ignore it.

[morgan]

Most 'normal' people don't spend much time looking at their dogs genitalia. Who cares if pet Dane has a small doodle Not like he's going to be using for anything other than piddling! Is he going to go out and buy a Porshe due to penis envy??? :p

Spoke to a vet about castrating large breeds early, and he specifically mentioned the problems Great Danes have if done too early. The abnormally small penis and urether can cause extremely painful urinary blockages in adults.

So yes, he will only be using it for piddling, but it won't always even do that. I guess the dog will care about the consequences of having "a small doodle" even if you don't.

[Cordelia]

QUOTE(Cordelia @ 22nd Aug 2006 - 05:13 PM)

Most 'normal' people don't spend much time looking at their dogs genitalia. Who cares if pet Dane has a small doodle Not like he's going to be using for anything other than piddling! Is he going to go out and buy a Porshe due to penis envy???

Spoke to a vet about castrating large breeds early, and he specifically mentioned the problems Great Danes have if done too early. The abnormally small penis and urether can cause extremely painful urinary blockages in adults.

So yes, he will only be using it for piddling, but it won't always even do that. I guess the dog will care about the consequences of having "a small doodle" even if you don't.

One vets opinion that can't be backed up by factual evidence in more than miniscule numbers. Speculation regarding what can happen, doesn't make it a foregone conclusion.

There are NOT masses of giant breeds being castrated at 8wks of age. There would be a very small number of giant breeds in the population who have been desexed under 12wks of age but considering very few true giant breed babies end up in Rescue and registered breeders on whole DON'T do early desexing I dare say that your vet is NOT basing his judgement on actual experience or real evidence. If he is...... where is the PROOF??

QUOTE(Cordelia @ 26th Aug 2006 - 08:40 AM)

We desex early to remove the choice to breed from lovely people who deserve a lovely pup but have no place breeding... regardless of the reason why they want to breed. Some pups WILL develop medical problems due to early desexing..... but as yet, there is STILL no conclusive scientific evidence that would lead us to stop this practice.

There is conclussive scientific evidence but people just choose to ignore it.

Comprehension issue.

but as yet, there is STILL no conclusive scientific evidence that would lead us to stop this practice...... and the evidence available is biased against desexing generally and if it isn't.... it is speculative and inconclusive that early desexing is SOLEY to blame for whatever issue is being reported on at the time. You should also note that often numbers involved in studies are low therefore gaining formal and conclusive stats are an issue.

[morgan]

There are NOT masses of giant breeds being castrated at 8wks of age. There would be a very small number of giant breeds in the population who have been desexed under 12wks of age but considering very few true giant breed babies end up in Rescue and registered breeders on whole DON'T do early desexing I dare say that your vet is NOT basing his judgement on actual experience or real evidence. If he is...... where is the PROOF??

Who said 8 weeks? EARLY desexing in giant breeds can be at 6 mths - a world of difference between a Dane and a SWF. As there are few scientific studies on long term effects of early desexing, I would have thought that personal experience of a vet who deals with many, many dog breeders to be totally relevant, even if you don't want to hear it.

[silverdog]

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Edited February 26, 2008 by silverdog