Coolibah Coolies Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Pity the "responsible breeder "who sold an registered undesexed male husky to my neighbours who now delight in breeding husky x wolfhound x mastif puppies who are then sold not vaccinated or chipped hadnt desexed him before he left home. I cant belive a breeder doing the right thing even gets bagged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan Posted August 22, 2006 Author Share Posted August 22, 2006 What's the right thing? Desexing at 8 weeks was not the right thing for this pup! Why didn't the breeder do the research into the effects of extremely early desexing on large breeds and ask her vet for options? Tubes tied? Or vasectomised in the case of a male? But of course this is more expensive, so the breeder chooses the cheaper and easier option, at the expense of the pup. If more breeders demanded surgical sterilisation without stopping hormone production, there would be fewer cases like this Akita. It is up to us to educate the vets, who simply don't understand the dangers of standard desexing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitKat Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 It may not have been right for that particular pup...but i think the new owner has to accept that her pup is one of the unlucky few and work out ways to keep the problem at bay. Don't know about where you are...but up here there are very few vets that will tie tubes or vasectomise pups...they'd rather take everything all out. It's not a matter of being cheaper/easier. Also...even if this pup had not been desexed early...it could still have occured/continued to occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Well said Cordelia. If breeders dont insist on desexing there irresponsable,if they do it early there monsters .Sad world when another breeder happily bags a breeder for doing the right thing with a breed that in the wrong hands could be trouble. Cheaper,easier what crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peibe Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 I cannot believe this I wish all registered breeder would desex their pet quality pups before rehoming. Once again she did the right thing The bitch cannot be used to breed from, no unwanted Akita or Akita x in pounds for rescue to try and rehome Sad for the pup but she is one of thousands that do not have problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirty Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 I would have thought that 8 weeks was very early to be sending a large breed puppy to a new home anyway. I thought most breeders rehomed at about 10-12 weeks? Why not, if they want to desex their pups, wait until the pup is 16 weeks old before desexing/rehoming it? I agree with Peibe that all pet quality pups should be desexed - but then Peibe, Cordelia and myself deal mostly with rescues and we see the results of BYB getting their hands on undesexed pedigree dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordelia Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Why not, if they want to desex their pups, wait until the pup is 16 weeks old before desexing/rehoming it? Danes can have up to 10 or more in a litter..... imagine 12 x 20kg 16wk old Dane babies. As gorgeous as that image is....... now Imagine a breeder trying to feed, socialise, train and mange WELL that many juvenile giant pups until 16wks of age . It wouldn't be good for the pups OR the breeder on several levels! Holding til 10wks is a fine idea though for desexing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 And of course, the breeder just HAPPENED to have a crystal ball to know that this would happen? Sheesh....I take my hat off to them for desexing early. Anything that happens after that is what I would class as a "sh!t happens" kind of thing. Same thing COULD have happened to an older bitch, particularly if they don't begin to cycle early and I am well aware that this is the case with many large breeds. And I am aware of many large breed girls who decide to pop a silent heat for their first one and end up in whelp anyway! Cut the breeder some slack. At least they TRIED!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan Posted August 23, 2006 Author Share Posted August 23, 2006 Any breeder of large dogs is only responsible if they are determined to give their pups the best possible start in life - health and new owners. Desexing at 8 weeks is NOT healthy - there are far too many adverse effects. To Neuter or Not Tubal ligation, hysterectomy and vasectomy are all surgical sterilisation options open to breeders who are concerned about selling to possible puppy mills, backyard breeders or irresponsible dog owners. If they prefer to damage the pup's longterm health rather than take such risks they have not done their homework. Surely the possibility (and not a necessity) of two separate surgeries a couple of years apart are preferable to the increased risks of cancer, cruciate ligament ruptures, spay incontinence or what this poor akita is suffering? No crystal ball is needed to know that adverse health effects from early desexing are far more common than we realise - the internet is a wonderful tool for doing research on canine health topics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 The first paragraph on that site is enough to put me off reading any further. The word 'zealot' comes to mind.....the writers are the obvious ignorant ones if they seriously believe that dogs should not be speyed and instead we should just teach people to be more responsible. Do not neuter you dog, it destroys their mental health, their instincts and their physical health, just be a responsible friend. This ridiculous attempt at controlling the animal population and the thousands of unwanted pets that are unfortunately euthanized in the US is, in our opinion, a miserable failure and a killer of large breed dogs. As usual it is the people who are the problem and as usual, the animals have to pay the price. Morgan, for me, you just lost the debate by putting up that link. Perhaps if you showed a reputable site that gave medically proven facts then more people would be able to make informed judgements about the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Excuse me, but in some areas, the procedures you mention are NOT available to ALL breeders! I'm sorry but you can bag the breeder as much as you like however I feel you will not find much support here where there is such a large population of responsible and ethical breeders who try very hard to maintain the integrity and purity of their breeds and breeding programs whilst at the same time ensuring that to the best of their ability their dogs have long and healthy lives. Given the slight risk of problems after such surgeries (which can occur at ANY stage in a dogs' life) vs the very LARGE risk of a dog falling into the wrong hands entire, I believe that the breeder has done NOTHING wrong. Desexing at 8 weeks may not necessarily be an ideal scenario, but I would think that a litter of crossbred (or even purebred) puppies at 6 months and then possibly every 6 - 12 months after that, is pretty much comparable Yes, the internet is a valuable tool. However it can also be very damaging when people who have TRIED to do the right thing by their dogs and their dogs' breed are bagged out without right of reply. And no, you really shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet. For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan Posted August 23, 2006 Author Share Posted August 23, 2006 The first paragraph on that site is enough to put me off reading any further. The word 'zealot' comes to mind.....the writers are the obvious ignorant ones if they seriously believe that dogs should not be speyed and instead we should just teach people to be more responsible. Do not neuter you dog, it destroys their mental health, their instincts and their physical health, just be a responsible friend. This ridiculous attempt at controlling the animal population and the thousands of unwanted pets that are unfortunately euthanized in the US is, in our opinion, a miserable failure and a killer of large breed dogs. As usual it is the people who are the problem and as usual, the animals have to pay the price. Morgan, for me, you just lost the debate by putting up that link. Perhaps if you showed a reputable site that gave medically proven facts then more people would be able to make informed judgements about the debate. I am not trying to win any debates, and I am not saying not to desex. That link was posted to show the other side of the desexing debate, and to try to encourage more thought on the topic. Many vets won't or can't perform the sterilisation methods I advocate, and they WON"T while we breeders continue to accept the status quo. It is up to us breeders to demand better options for the pups we produce - over vaccination is being challenged, and new protocols are in place, but many vets will not change their ways, as there is no financial advantage for them. Elsewhere in the world the current mantra of desexing at any cost is starting to be questioned as well, and it is about time. Spay, neuter and cancer If breeders educated themselves, did the research, and started to demand alternatives from their vets these options would gradually become more available, but if we don't demand it, vets sure as hell aren't going to offer it - they have no interest in doing anything differently. I have heard many vets say that there "are no health problems caused by early desexing, and it prevents cancer" - statements like this PROVE that they have not done the research either. This debate cannot be "won", but if some people start the ball rolling, maybe we can improve our dog's health without adding to the unwanted dog population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my_sibe_owns_me Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 (edited) Met a friend's gorgeous Akita pup this morning - lovely type and nature, absolutely gorgeous pup, which her proud owner had waited ages for.The pup's "responsible" breeder, insisted on desexing her at 8 weeks, prior to leaving home. My friend's vet wrote a letter, asking for this to be delayed to let the bitch mature a little first, and a desexing contract was offered, but to no avail. She was desexed. In the months since then, the poor pup's vulva has not grown and developed normally, and the constant pooling of urine has caused an ongoing maintenance nightmare, with infections, vet trips and constant cleaning after every time the bitch pees. Which of course can't be done when the owner is at work. The pup has been in constant distress at the smell and discomfort, as has the owner, not to mention the embarrassment whenever the pup has rolled on her back for a tummy rub from friends, revealing unsightly, smelly genitalia. Certainly hope that this breeder is pleased with destroying the quality of life for this poor girl - understand that as it was an interstate sale, she couldn't be sure that the new owner was totally responsible, but why not do a refund on provision of a desexing certificate, or just do a hysterectomy, leaving the essential hormones intact? Any breeder that desexes such a large breed as an Akita at 8 weeks should not be breeding IMO - they certainly don't care about their dogs. BLAH!!! Vets dish out a lot of BS!!!! As for desexing at 8 weeks....I see no problem....I have owned many mutts from rescures that where desex at the age and NOT a single ONE of them had a promblem!!!!! And vets JUST started this rant on not desexing your puppies early! Do you want a male that humps everything that moves and is an asshole around other male dogs? Or a bitch that believes she owns everything? Clearly you have not looking into this.... I mean if you want your pup fully devolpe you would have to wait till it reached 6mo or age and do you know how many promblems and unwanted puppies and temps this would caused and if the bitch is bred on the first heat then she will loss all of it to the new puppies and still NOT GROW TO PROPER SIZE!!!!! Open your eyes and really look down the road to see what this would cause!!! :p Edited August 23, 2006 by my_sibe_owns_me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Good on you for your beliefs Morgan. You are obviously passionate about your stance and I see that as a good thing. HOWEVER I don't agree with what you have stated about the breeder. They have obviously done their homework and have decided to weigh up the pros and cons and desex early. How many puppies were in the litter that this girl came from? How many had issues? If it were 1 in 8, I'd say that is a positive thing. If more than that, I'd certainly not so much be questioning the breeder as the vet perform the procedure! To me,t you saying don't do it because of the risks of problems is akin to saying to somebody, don't get your tubes tied because it might fail and you will fall pregnant or don't vaccinate your children because the risks of getting a childhood disease is slight. Chances are you will be fine, but you won't know that unless it happens. We can't all live on ifs, buts and maybes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipy Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Morgan I (obviously) agree 100%. All the benefits of early desexing do not in any way outweigh the fact that these people are getting, for lack of better word "damaged goods", given that that is how people obviously treat dogs these days. And now we are saying that we don't want males to act like males, and females to act like females???? :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordelia Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 (edited) The first paragraph on that site is enough to put me off reading any further. Unfortunately, I read all of it and it's some of the biggest load of crap I've read in a while. Socially, the group of people that take the time to buy a pedigreed pet and raise him or her as a family member, feed their best friends the best food, and spend the money at the vet, are not the people who let their dogs roam through the inner cities of America, creating a pet population problem. Yep. These types never end up with an unwanted/accidental litter do they. They'd be just like the people who surrendered a purbred litter of Rottweilers to me a few months ago. It happens when people don't desex their PETS! The vast majority of euthanized adult dogs are dropped off at the pound because they are unwanted. Obviously the author is a genius. The type of people who create this problem will continue to do so, regardless of whether or not loving pet owners have their dogs butchered by profit motivated veterinarians. Anyone referring to desexing as 'butchering' is proving just how zelous and stupid they are. The big problem for all of us, is the lie that your dog will be healthier and live longer. Absolutely absurd, ridiculous and such bad science that it is almost laughable if it wasn't so hurtful to our large breed dogs. Small breeds also, but the larger breeds suffer from some specific orthopedic and gastrointestinal problems that are exasperated by this primitive surgery. Emotionally, all of the breeds, as a matter of fact, all mammals would be affected similarly And this person thinks WE are touting propaganda. What a load of twaddle! Health and emotional problems are our objection to this primitive surgery. First and foremost remember that your dog is not that different from you. We share over 75% of the same genetic material. Use your common sense. If dogs are NO different to us... as the author states.... then we'd share 100% genetic material... NOT 75%! Geez, even with my basic maths skills I can figure that out! :D Common sense would be the realisationof the author that the 25% different genetic makeup means we are really quite different!... y'know.. the whole fur, 4 legs, licking ones own genitals thing.. those differences! Primitive surgery???? Only if done with a sharp stick and dirty hands. :p Since large breed dogs are prone to some orthopedic problems like hip-displasure Author is uneducated in more ways than one. If they want to be taken seriously.... SPELL CHECK MORON!!! Overweight large dogs are more prone to a myriad of diseases and conditions, just like humans. The current method of sterilization destroys the dogs hormonal and chemical balance to such a degree that they are unable to maintain a healthy body weight. More BS. Desexed animals don't NEED as much food.... if people stopped shoving food into their dogs they wouldn't get FAT! ugh! I know plenty of undesexed and obese dogs. Spaying or neutering your pet is the worst thing you can do for their overall health. Basically, when a dog is subjected to theses radical surgeries, their owner just started killing their dog slowly. so that's not scare-mongering?? What a lunatic Bloat kills many large breed dogs that are altered. It kills lots of undesexed ones too. Makes no difference whether the dog has ovaries or testicles.... it's a GASTIC issue NOT a hormone one! Emotionally this surgery wreaks havoc on a dog and their identity as it would with anyone. Their identity????? You gotta be kidding!! ;) The only identity crisis my Dane has is that she occasionally believe herself to be a Chihuahua who can fit on a tiny dog bed (whilst looking like an idiot!) Most of the people who push this surgery, are people who need a cause, not people who actually have a dog in their home that is part of their family. Hmmm... so what are all these furry creatures I hang out with all day??? And what the hell has taken over my lounge every night????? ok.. try again..... When our dog is sick or weird it affects the entire family. weird??? Is that a new scientific term??? Who wants a fat, non-active, sexually non-descript tube, devoid of it's original self and abilities, living with us, that serves no purpose except to eat and crap. And that is actually one of the most frightening thing written on that site. Real animal lover that one. Many of the promoters of this surgery, are somehow profiting from the surgery itself and/or side effects of the surgery and in a big way. Conspiracy theory much?? Lastly, many of the people who promote the surgery, do not believe in pedigreed dogs and think that the AKC is a weapon of mass destruction. Whoa! Another conspiracy! The groups promoting the surgery can't make a good scientific argument, medically or socially, because they don't have one. It is about profit and fanaticism Yes, because everything the author has stated on that site is pure science and not fanatical at all. And this final special gem in closing..... Don't do it to your best friends. They wouldn't do it to you. Morgan.... Thanks for the best laugh I've had today!! :p Edited August 23, 2006 by Cordelia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my_sibe_owns_me Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 (edited) Morgan I (obviously) agree 100%. All the benefits of early desexing do not in any way outweigh the fact that these people are getting, for lack of better word "damaged goods", given that that is how people obviously treat dogs these days. And now we are saying that we don't want males to act like males, and females to act like females???? :p Do you know how many people out there can NOT in ANYWAY handle a male being a male and a female not being a female!!!??? What about when their male/female go looking for a mate? What happens when the onwers no longer want to deal with their bitch bleeding all over the house??? Its simple...most people can not handle it and it will get WAY out of control!!! So open you eyes and really look at this....really see what you are asking of peope...(IMO) most people are not ready and unturst worthy for this responsablity you are askiing of them.... But hey dont believe me why dont you become a foster parent for dogs......maybe you'll just have a change of heart Ps. Your right im sooooo awful because im looking out for my by desexing them at 8 weeks:rolleyes: Edited August 23, 2006 by my_sibe_owns_me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan Posted August 23, 2006 Author Share Posted August 23, 2006 Do you want a male that humps everything that moves Most serial "humpers" are dogs that were desexed as puppies, that were not given the chance to outgrow the normal puppy phase of humping. I have NEVER had an adult intact male do this, but I have seen hundreds of desexed males that do. mean if you want your pup fully devolpe you would have to wait till it reached 6mo or age and do you know how many promblems and unwanted puppies and temps this would caused The large breeds I was talking about here do not develop until after 12 or 18 months, so there is no way they would be producing puppies at 6 mths! still NOT GROW TO PROPER SIZE!!!!! Who was talking about proper size? I was talking about abnormal development of genitalia. However, there are serious ramifications with cancer etc, that people never attribute ot early desexing, because they all believe current opinion which says that desexing prevents cancer. It only prevents cancer in the bits that are removed, and mammary cancer - every other cancer is increased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my_sibe_owns_me Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 (edited) Do you want a male that humps everything that moves Most serial "humpers" are dogs that were desexed as puppies, that were not given the chance to outgrow the normal puppy phase of humping. I have NEVER had an adult intact male do this, but I have seen hundreds of desexed males that do. mean if you want your pup fully devolpe you would have to wait till it reached 6mo or age and do you know how many promblems and unwanted puppies and temps this would caused The large breeds I was talking about here do not develop until after 12 or 18 months, so there is no way they would be producing puppies at 6 mths! still NOT GROW TO PROPER SIZE!!!!! Who was talking about proper size? I was talking about abnormal development of genitalia. However, there are serious ramifications with cancer etc, that people never attribute ot early desexing, because they all believe current opinion which says that desexing prevents cancer. It only prevents cancer in the bits that are removed, and mammary cancer - every other cancer is increased. As fopr the humpers I have to beg to differ....we have none desexed males at our house and they wil hump away!!!! Desex at 8 weeks never even thinks about humping!!! I also work iin a groom shop.....the none desexed dogs are assholes who gett he rest 'scummy' Are you for real!!???? My English mastiff came into heat at 6mos!!!!! As did my sibe! So large breed dogs CAN and WILL come into heat at 6 mos of age As for the cancer bit its all BS.....your dog/bitch will either get it or not get it....you can not prevent it Edited August 23, 2006 by my_sibe_owns_me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 (edited) . Edited May 9, 2009 by cavNrott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now