Rspca Investigates Dog Squad's 'cruelty'

[MonElite]

lab and poodle - its obvious you have NO IDEA on how the ecollar works.

[Nekhbet]

I have many ideas ... occasionally good ones too.

There are dogs out there that have problems. BIG problems. And for them prong collars, E collars and other equiptment is suitable and necessary. But they look scary and horrible so we ban them. False attack work which helps proof a reactive dog against randomly lashing out is seen as 'attack work' and heaven forbid RSPCA gets wind of it or get ready for a criminal charge and having your dog PTS. These are laws we should drive that truck of yours through and bulldoze right out of the books. This thread was about police dogs, not obedience and tracking - big difference in temperament and drive.

I have seen trainers BEAT dogs with a lead ... lets ban leashes. A trainer punched my dog in the head... lets ban dog trainers. I have seen people choke their dogs on a flat or nylon martingale collar ... lets ban those too.

Where are the problems - MISUSE AND ABUSE. THAT is where problems occur - the right equiptment for the right situation for the right DOG. There are some dogs out there that when in drive, you cannot get through to by a little tug on the lead, a treat or a clicker. I dont abuse or hurt my Malinois, but she is not for majority of dog owners because when her sights are set only I can control her through that. And thats the way she is.

And my attitude? I spent my Sunday wandering the streets of the Melbourne CBD with my DDB boy to show people that large dogs have nice, family friendly temperaments. He was showered in pats and hugs, people were taking photos with him and went away with a positive image. Why? Because Joe Shmo who votes needs to see the REAL nature of the majority of the breeds the media has portreyed as evil, vicious, child eating killers. Damned if my babies will be dragged down with it. I belitte the responses because they are Knee-jerk and plain IGNORANT. No one is interested in real education it has to be spread out on a platter because the average person will not go and spend hours researching the truth. Its easier to buy the Herald Sun for $1, see the nasty doggy pic and some half-assed story about another bully breed ripping someone to shreds.

(Edit because grammer me no worky)

Edited August 21, 2006 by Nekhbet

[Herr Rottweiler]

I have seen trainers BEAT dogs with a lead ... lets ban leashes. A trainer punched my dog in the head... lets ban dog trainers. I have seen people choke their dogs on a flat or nylon martingale collar ... lets ban those too.

Where are the problems - MISUSE AND ABUSE. THAT is where problems occur - the right equiptment for the right situation for the right DOG. There are some dogs out there that when in drive, you cannot get through to by a little tug on the lead, a treat or a clicker. I dont abuse or hurt my Malinois, but she is not for majority of dog owners because when her sights are set only I can control her through that. And thats the way she is.

I have had the honor of meeting some of the nicest, most generous & brillant minded people through the dog community and on the other end of the spectrum I have had, (as have others) the misfortune of meeting, destructive, mindless individuals who have failed in life so miserably that they rely on their animals or the generalisation of animals to bring about laws and more laws so someone will take notice of them. Many of these people are polititions mind you, the greasiest, most two faced, deceitful people on Gods good Earth!

Sadly, there are many idiots out there and they too vote and have the right to their opinion which they seem to have a lot of time to do as the good folks are too busy being productive and sensible.

Why don't you all watch the movie, V for Vendetta. It's where we are headed.

[RottnBullies]

And my attitude? I spent my Sunday wandering the streets of the Melbourne CBD with my DDB boy to show people that large dogs have nice, family friendly temperaments. He was showered in pats and hugs, people were taking photos with him and went away with a positive image. Why? Because Joe Shmo who votes needs to see the REAL nature of the majority of the breeds the media has portreyed as evil, vicious, child eating killers. Damned if my babies will be dragged down with it. I belitte the responses because they are Knee-jerk and plain IGNORANT. No one is interested in real education it has to be spread out on a platter because the average person will not go and spend hours researching the truth. Its easier to buy the Herald Sun for $1, see the nasty doggy pic and some half-assed story about another bully breed ripping someone to shreds.

[Erny]

Nekhbet - for your last post.

RSPCA MIGHT do a few things that are good, but IMO they've done and do too many BIG things WRONG and DETRIMENTAL in the dog world for me to be able to trust them enough to take THEIR opinion on face value.

Say "RSPCA" and I can't help thinking "politician boot lickers brownie point collectors". Unfair? Maybe. But that's my opinion - wonder how I developed that?

[lab and poodle]

I don't know whether you will get this; many of the things you say here I could agree with.I am no absolutist . Many I don't. The rules of debate seem to be taking a dive, so I will tell you an ancedote. At work i was talking to a colleague and it turned to how some of the younger people in the place seemed to be very enthusiastic about themselves and their abilities despite evidence to the contrary. He said to me " They were born with long arms" . I said "what?" He said they were born with long arms so it is very comfortable to pat themselves on the back with". It isa bit like this column, you have views and a whole lot of people are running around making you fell good about holding them (except in my case).

myszka I find you rude. Check your facts first. Ask me don't tell me. Some manners. I have a relatively long and distinguished career in POWER electronics. I know more about shock than possibly you will ever know. I know how shock collars work. I could design one in very short order. I know about threshold levels. I know how to design safe products. I know how complex the paths are for the current.Despite all this, I will acknowledge that you might see dogs in a different way. I choose to believe that they are living organisms with a fully functioning central nervous system. That is my philosophical point of view.I know that 3KV open circuit is at least unpleasant. Hence shock collars (I don't use euphemisms based on marketing hype) are fairly low on the list of training tools I would use, like planting my boot up a subordinate's bum, But I would prefer them to a choker.

[Erny]

It isa bit like this column, you have views and a whole lot of people are running around making you fell good about holding them (except in my case).

Or perhaps it's because we recognise a person's views; the written expression of them is very good; some great and very valid points have been raised; the views are supported. So what's wrong with crediting someone with something we wish to acknowledge?

You speak of Myszka being "rude" (by the way, you speak of knowledge of how the e-collar works .... "complex path for current .... etc" - but not once do I see where you mention "how dog's learn" as being part of the equation), but IMO your comment above is condescending towards any of us who express a view which is not like yours.

Manners?

[Herr Rottweiler]

Ok, so the fact that I'm an electrician by trade and have a working knowledge of electronics that must account to a resonable ammount of credibility for my long arms

Being belted a few times by 240 v and even once almost fatal by 415v I could give you a living testimony on what's horribly painful and what's merely unpleasant as I have shocked myself many times on several sensitive locations with an Ecollar.

I would be willing to bet, as others have put it that many people who voice an opinion have never really had any field education, they just don't like it and that's enough evidence for them. If people don't like seeing suffering in animals, then for gods sake, don't own one as there will be some kind of suffering and torment that the animal will have to endure by coexisting in a human environment. It's not all roses and sunny days like everyone portrays in their happy snaps!

Silly stuff like scientific fact and evidence seem to have no place in an emotive society

In closing, I might just add, like it's been said many times before, any equipment in the hands of the idiot or the ignorant are indeed dangerous, exactly like opinions.

[Jeff Jones]

excellent reply hr

but im a little bit worried on how far you take the testing process of the e-collar

I could give you a living testimony on what's horribly painful and what's merely unpleasant as I have shocked myself many times on several sensitive locations with an Ecollar.

[Erny]

excellent reply hr

but im a little bit worried on how far you take the testing process of the e-collar

HR: I could give you a living testimony on what's horribly painful and what's merely unpleasant as I have shocked myself many times on several sensitive locations with an Ecollar.

Edited August 21, 2006 by Erny

[Herr Rottweiler]

Well I have to say, after I re read that I kind of blushed

Fear not loyal readers, it went no where near there

[MonElite]

Lab and poodle - Im glad you find me :p , this was the exact intention of my post, to make you respond to it. You have with the info that just prooves that you have no idea

Im no electrician, nor an engieneer, nor a scientist, but Im a physiotherapist and I have in my life applied various strengths of various currents to thousands of people, myslef including, hell small kids including.

And none of them ever complained about it being painfull.

Have you ever had the TENS "machine" put on you? I can crank it up to the full output on myslef on any part of my body and the worst will happen to me is some muscle contraction if I hit the right nerve endings.

Have you ever felt the output a modern ecollar produces on yourself?

At least we agree on one point I also preffer the ecollar to the check chain, but hang on arent they allowed and noone isnt screeming when someone is using one?

HR I didnt realise you are into THIS sort of stuff but ecollar??? isnt leather enough?

[Rusky]

The court case was dismissed

no it wasn't dismissed, it was proven but the case was dismissed without penalty. There is a huge difference in the wording and what you may have understood from the wording. If you are in NSW and use an ecollar you are breaking the law. I gather from the article that the police also are breaking the law as they do not have any exemption. It is my guess that the doberman case highlighted the police situation.

Will be interesting to see the outcome, hope you NSW people keep us updated.

[Jeff Jones]

I gather from the article that the police also are breaking the law as they do not have any exemption

says who

PREVENTION OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS ACT 1979 - SECT 24

Certain defences

24 Certain defences

(ii) in compliance with any duty imposed upon that person by or under this or any other Act,

Police Dogs Act 1984

Application of local government local laws etc,

5.(1) the provisions of any rule, regulation or local law made by any local government pursuant to any Act do not Apply-

(a) to or in respect to any police dog;

(b) to a police dog handler in respect of anything done by the police dog handler in the execution of his or her duty as-

(i) a police officer;

(ii) a police dog handler;

[MonElite]

The court case was dismissed

no it wasn't dismissed, it was proven but the case was dismissed without penalty. There is a huge difference in the wording and what you may have understood from the wording.

What is the difference? Im "green" in that area.

Does that mean that the owner got a cryminal record and no fine? Can someone pls explain this to me.

[lab and poodle]

"Being belted a few times by 240 v and even once almost fatal by 415v I could give you a living testimony on what's horribly painful and what's merely unpleasant as I have shocked myself many times on several sensitive locations with an Ecollar."

I can actually agree with you on something! I was a liscensed sparkie too which I managed to do while I was a TAFE teacher in NZ. I have had some nasty belts too, none more so than hanging off a 420V DC buss. I did think i was going to die.

I used the word unpleasent not dangerous and used a synonym in a human context to explain my point of view deliberately.I find I generally get the best results in my work enviroment if I use encouragement and reward in it's various different guises. It is very similar to my dogs. E (shock) collars aren't the end of the world nor are prong collars. I can see some situations where they may need to be used. As I have said many times before, chuck the chokers.

I think average joe finds real dogs, real tools hard to use. I could not imagine the bizzare and funny ways a clicker gets used. I really have no faith in their ability to use tools that are more difficult to use such as pinch and e collars. I have seen dogs trained by less well informed people using these tools and the results are tragic for the dog, the same as chokers.Therefore I want chokers banned, and these other tools restricted so they have to LEARN to use them under guidance if they have too.Thats the law chages I want. I know most aren't as dedicated as I am, and that's life. I hardly use corrections of any sort, becuase I have taught myself how to train so I don't need to. I also like dogs and how they behave.This positive manner rubs off on my dogs too.My poodle has had some mild verbal corrections, my old lab has had some fairly physical ones at times, but I reckon if I was training him now it probably wouldn't happen

I need to address one other comment about tracking. Yes I do know about drive. Tracking a dog who is not in drive is a pain in the bum. I trial my dogs when they can handle my bad handling, they are so driven that they wont let me pull them off the track.My lab used to bypass all sorts of distractions,including live animals, food etc. My poodle is ready.(Put all those preconceptions away). I asked my wife to lay a track at the weekend, and not being doggy, she did a bit of a rough job. The starting pole was on the ground in long grass, and I was desperately looking for it. I pulled the lead, it wouldn't move, and my poodle all 6 kg of her was speadeagled across the missing starting post refusing to move. What a dog!!

[Rusky]

What is the difference? Im "green" in that area.

Does that mean that the owner got a cryminal record and no fine? Can someone pls explain this to me.

It would stay on the record yes that he broke the law by using (importing?) the banned collar. The owner like many must not have been aware of the law and he had bought on ebay? Not knowing is not a defence so yes the case was proven, he was not given a fine.

Adult cases stay on record so if he is found again to be using the collar the first case is mentioned.

[MonElite]

Lab and poodle - few questions for you

Have you ever felt the output a modern ecollar produces on yourself?

How do police across the Tasman train the dogs and what is it that Australian police isnt doing right?

What is your proposed law change - can you give us a bit mroe details pls.

Rusky - stays on record - does it mean its a cryminal record for the person?

I wonder if the tool was confiscated. The person by the looks of it bought it from an Australian supplier Innotek, I dont think there was a problem of the person importing the illegal goods.

Edited August 22, 2006 by myszka

[Erny]

I think average joe finds real dogs, real tools hard to use. ... I really have no faith in their ability to use tools that are more difficult to use such as pinch and e collars. I have seen dogs trained by less well informed people using these tools and the results are tragic for the dog, the same as chokers.Therefore I want chokers banned, and these other tools restricted so they have to LEARN to use them under guidance if they have too.

In Vic, they've banned prong collars.

In Vic, they've restricted the use of e-collars (must have permission from Vet - the one's I've spoken to when I needed permission didn't even know how they worked or that the dog should have the right temperament for one).

Now you want to ban check chains?

Don't you realise that the irresponsible dog owners are going to find/use something else (or use these tools privately) and won't be coming out to look for guidance if the view is to simply ban the "tools"???

But of course, then you could ban all dogs and that would solve the problem.

Target the owners who use these tools incorrectly. Work to educate them.

And I agree to Myszka's questioning? What is it that the Police Force have done wrongly with the "tools" the RSPCA speak of? How have they been used incorrectly?

No way am I thinking the "tools" have been to blame.

[Rusky]

no he doesn't have a criminal record, it wasn't a criminal court was it? From the sounds of the article it was a magistrates court.

Innotek sell collars here in WA so if you lived here and took the collar to NSW and didn't know the law it would not make you a criminal, it wouldn't occur to me that something that was used in another state or by the local police would be illegal for me to buy or use.

I think the magistrate saw that, there was no intent to commit a crime.

I know they can't be used in NSW or Victoria so if I used one I would be breaking the law. Breaking the law is up to the individual.

What is it that the Police Force have done wrongly with the "tools" the RSPCA speak of? How have they been used incorrectly?

don't know but keep us informed. I am still wondering if the article alerted the law to the use by the police.