lab and poodle Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 [Have you ever felt the output a modern ecollar produces on yourself? How do police across the Tasman train the dogs and what is it that Australian police isnt doing right? What is your proposed law change - can you give us a bit mroe details pls. 1) Yes I have. I found it annoying. It is irrelevant to how a dog might view it becuase we just don't know.It is actually really hard to measure the response of a dog to a shock.A wee bit like how a battery placed across the tongue gives you a tingle,but held in the hands does nothing.I think an element of fear might exist to how they percieve it. I don't have a view on shock or e collars other than that. From measurements, it would be classified as a shock by the IEC, but that counts for not a lot. I don't think they should be used as a front line method of training, and that their use should be restricted. I would have no problems with the police using them what so ever. I have no opinion on how NZ police train because I don't know for sure. They advertise as being "positive" and one of their handlers cleaned out the service comps with a clicker trained dog at the turn of the century. The main thing is that they use many many more dogs per head of population. (Look up the dog numbers in Vic and NSW versus NZ). I think this helps the police be dog savvy and have a critical mass. Also the police don't usually carry guns so the emphasis is a bit different. Please note I am a cynic at heart. If I had the law change in full, people would have to go to as much trouble to get a dog as they do to get a car. Owning a dog is a priviledge, not a right. They would have to sign bonds to look after and keep their dogs in good health.They would have to pass a theory and practical exam on dogs and behaviour. A criminal record would forfeit your right to own a dog for a period of time.This would clean up a lot of trouble about breeds getting into the wrong hands for the wrong reasons. I would look after some of the "rights" of dogs and other animals too. I really wish people would have a go with some more constructive ways of dealing with their dogs first, rather than grabbing the big guns straight away. That is why I want access restricted to some of these methods. When I was teaching, they talked as if the end of the world would happen if coporal punishment was abolished in Schools. It didn't. What it did is require some creativity and belief in some better methods.I some times took school age classes of so called hard cases. I never had a moments worth of bother. Some of that is my stature, some is the ability to get across leadership without talking.(Others assesment of me). The same thing happens with dogs. I wish chokers were banned. I know as you do it will never happen. You can't ban a piece of chain. I am sick looking out the window seeing some poor dog leading its owner down the street choking 1/2 to death. The good point is that the dog is being walked. The amazing thing is that their owner continues to use a method that just isn't working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 It's easy to say, ban the correction chain when you may have a dog that will never require one. Banning in these tools is clearly a knee jerk reaction once again to individuals emotions on how, "THEY" feel about them. It seems that sensible people are suggesting education as banning always leads to the snowball effect. I have a list of devices that i'm not a great fan of , however I will not run off half cocked to raise a people's army to have them banned. It's not the answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 (edited) lab and poodle I do agree with you on several points re dog ownership, if you want to run a campaign to implement a licencencing system for dog ownership - Ill be there. That ONE NZ police dog trained with the clicker (I wonder if ONLY with the clicker......) is I think most famous dog in all pure positive training methods arguments. Can we have some other examples pls. As to various equipement - do I understand correctly? You are proposing to lift the ban on ecollars and have them restricted? how about other equipement? - halti, martingale, harness, leash - all can be used incorrectly and inflict pain and injury. Edited August 22, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 (edited) From the article "Police had to suspend part of the training for new dogs after a complaint the noise sensitivity test could cause the dogs psychological problems." K9: we all know training is practicing for what we might encounter, so they should also remove the chances of bad guys firing guns around dogs then too... From the article "Another breeder, who has supplied Queensland and Fijian police, said he had demanded the return of his dogs only months ago after hearing how the squad tested new recruits." K9: I wonder why they would never have asked BEFORE supplying dogs the test procedures. I wonder did they think they would be supplying dogs for the Police so that the dogs could walk little old ladies accross thye street... Lab & Poodle: I have no respect for the ideas on both sides of this debate. K9: why make comment then? L&P: I think it is time to have a dam good look at what a police dog is requred to do, why it is required to do it, and how best that may be achieved. K9: This may come as a suprise to you, but Im sure this has been looked into... L&P: the sooner the RSPCA and the law makers move against the gadgets K9: do these gadgets include electric fences? L&P: That is my philosophical point of view.I know that 3KV open circuit is at least unpleasant. K9: you seem to forget our last discussion on e collars? 3 KV may be the unloaded voltage, but as the collars arent used unloaded, it isnt relevant.. L&P: Hence shock collars (I don't use euphemisms based on marketing hype) are fairly low on the list of training tools I would use, K9: I guess you call an email a text mime message? :D You call them shock collars as you have a point to push... I also cant see where anyone asked you to use one.... You may full well be able to design an e collar, that does not mean you would have any idea how to use one... Maybe the last thread http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?...p;#entry1007874 will jog your memory... L&P: E (shock) collars aren't the end of the world nor are prong collars. I can see some situations where they may need to be used. K9: then why a few paragraphs ago did you say that they should be banned? L&P: I really have no faith in their ability to use tools that are more difficult to use such as pinch and e collars. K9: give (dedicated) people some credit... As I have trained people to use e collars, many people without problems, I know it can be done. L&P: I have seen dogs trained by less well informed people using these tools and the results are tragic for the dog, the same as chokers. K9: as I have seen people ruin dogs with no more than a clicker... So? Why not talk of the success stories, oh yeah, they dont prove your point... I have seen people buy my manual on e collar training & with nothing else turn out a very well trained dog in a short period of time... L&P: and these other tools restricted so they have to LEARN to use them under guidance K9: thats fine with me.. L&P: I know most aren't as dedicated as I am, and that's life. K9: Careful you dont fall off that pedestal... I hardly use corrections of any sort, becuase I have taught myself how to train so I don't need to. K9: when one teaches one self how to train, isnt that known as the trial & error method? L&P: 1) Yes I have. I found it annoying. It is irrelevant to how a dog might view it becuase we just don't know. K9: of course we do, by the reaction on the dog... L&P: It is actually really hard to measure the response of a dog to a shock. K9: when your self taught.... A wee bit like how a battery placed across the tongue gives you a tingle,but held in the hands does nothing. K9: great example, in the hand there is no response from the person as there is no feeling, on the tongue there is a reaction, as it can be felt. I don't think they should be used as a front line method of training, and that their use should be restricted. I would have no problems with the police using them what so ever. K9: what makes you think the Police know how to use them? Its easy to say that we should ban this or ban that because YOU dont need one or have a dog that does, that doesnt help the dogs that do need something more than your slight verbal correction. Restriction of e collars I would fully support, as long as that restriction is only where the people nwanting to use them must recieve professional instruction. Edited August 22, 2006 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 the police have not broken any law in using the e-collar, its just another stupid dramatization by the media I have no opinion on how NZ police train because I don't know for sure. They advertise as being "positive" and one of their handlers cleaned out the service comps with a clicker trained dog at the turn of the century. The main thing is that they use many many more dogs per head of population. NZ has had a operational dog squad longer than any state in Australia, NSW got there first police dogs from New Zealand (one was a show dog who would lick you to death ) I have no opinion on how NZ police train because I don't know for sure. They advertise as being "positive" and one of their handlers cleaned out the service comps with a clicker trained dog at the turn of the century NZ Police use e-collars.... in October there will be a conference held in NZ by the Police Dog Section and there will be a day dedicated to the use of Prong and E-collars, Inspector Brendon Gibson who is in charge of the Police Dog Training section and Professor Kevin Stafford who is professor of animal behaviour at Massey University Institute of Veterinary, Animal and Biomedical Sciences, will both be giving a talk on recommended training implimentations, so far theres noone lined up to give a talk on clicker training methods :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 taken from the other thread quoted by K9 K9: I see your new here, if you get the chance to attend a workshop, I will demo all I have said & more with pleasure.. lab and poodle: I will one day.. but I can be a pedantic pain in the **** Im wondering l&p if you have emialed him about attending one? Few months went by, is the "one day"yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsD Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 I know most aren't as dedicated as I am, and that's life. K9: Careful you dont fall off that pedestal... Sorry, but :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsD Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 It's easy to say, ban the correction chain when you may have a dog that will never require one. Banning in these tools is clearly a knee jerk reaction once again to individuals emotions on how, "THEY" feel about them. It seems that sensible people are suggesting education as banning always leads to the snowball effect. I have a list of devices that i'm not a great fan of , however I will not run off half cocked to raise a people's army to have them banned. It's not the answer :D I agree completely HR . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Lab and Poodle a dog can be choked on ANY collar not just a check chain. If the dog is PULLING and pressure is applied to the throat by the restraint (ie collar) the lets get rid of those too. Your argument is because of the ignorance of others - not a reason to ban but to educate and at least have a manual that comes with the equiptment. Problem is people think that equiptment will immediately fix problems when its a combination of training and correct use of the collar that helps. Please. I have a dog that doesnt respond to a flat collar AT ALL. I've trained her to ignore the pulling sensation for work reasons. Even a check chain is pushing a stone uphill because of her high threshold. Yeah purely positive works to a point but you need to get out and meet some dogs more. We are talking high drive dogs. Waving a toy or a little tug wont do anything sometimes - I've met a shepherd that was such a self centred up himself SOB that giving him NO physical corrections (and I do not advocate ABUSE or beating) was practically an invitation to be dominated by him. Some dogs - give an inch they take a mile. You have to show who is boss and using equiptment like Check/pinch collars correctly does this without causing harm to the dog. You say to ban training equiptment but you are pigeon holing all dogs - that YOUR method will work on all dogs. Sure. I'll lend you my malinois for a day and we see how far you get. I repeat myself - Different dogs require different methods and different equiptment. Thats life. Animals are individuals and have to be treated accordingly. And a trainer that sees that and uses that to their advantage is a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lab and poodle Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Im wondering l&p if you have emialed him about attending one? Few months went by, is the "one day"yet? No I wont. I know from these threads that I am not that interested. I have sat back a bit and watched. You see i like to know what is being taught and how it is being taught. I dont see that. I just see a ton of smoke and mirrors stuff.I am having a ball with what I am doing, and i am getting dam good results. But you go for it. We have had all these discussions before. Again Yes it is current that counts ultimately. It is usually what is measured when perceptions of shock are talked about. But the prelim voltage is quite important too. Skin and muscle tissue is very non linear. I know you all have your pet theories on electricity, so go off and have some fun with them. If you are really interested, ask me.I am an expert at this stuff. The problem i find (and did when i first bought the topic up) is the lack of good solid info. The second problem is trying to patiently explain a problem that has say 5 variables when the audience thinks it has one. The third is that I have no supporters. Look how many people jump to my defence! The big world out there sees it differently. I was quoted as saying that I found the e collar "annoying". I was also quoted as saying that e collars werent the end of the world I also said that i had no problem what so ever with the police using an e collar. As for the police, I find it wasteful and i resent it strongly as a taxpayer that dogs get bounced because they have crooked ears. If a policeman cant hold is own with a dog with a crooked ear, then something is very wrong.(see GSDCV site). I think it is a bullshit attitude. In NZ, we required the police to have Mana and many off them do, just as many of them do here.Sureely a dog with a crooked ear isn't going to hurt! Look I am interested in positive training, you are not. Please advertise your website as such and i wont bother you lot any more.I challenge every one of you to pick up a mainstream positive book and go out there and make just one thing work for your dog even if the idea makes you see red like it originally did for me. Good luck with your dogs, give them a hug from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Its rather dissapointing that you think we are all out there to hurt our dogs. Yup i've tried positive but PURELY positive with no correction doesnt work too well with security dogs. You are talking about a dog thats pushed to extremes of emotion and stress, like police dogs. I'm interested in all types of training. But I take from all methods what I need for my dog and use it. Thats how you train dogs. Take the dog and use the method that fits best. Have you actually read what K9's training methods entail? So rewarding a dogs drive is not positive? Rewarding good behaviour and building focus is not positive? Damn have I got my training knickers in the proverbial knot then. I'm sorry how exactly do you train your dogs then? And this is a discussion forum. There are trainers and owners from all walks of life, that use different methods and equiptment. Some are qualified, certified and their experience will leave you in the dust so to imply no one will try positive is to be closed minded yourself. We are here to discuss but when you poo poo peoples methods and dogs with barely structured and unexperienced arguments they will answer back. its a FORUM. People tend to do that. Has nothing to do with the website. You have your say, we will have ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityBites Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Hmmm I purely positive trained (food rewards) a yorkshire terrier and a pomeranian. They sat, dropped, came when called, rolled over and were housetrained. They also danced and spun and 'prayed' for food! HOWEVER when I was out walking them off leash, they did not ignite terror into other people if they ran over to say hello, or wanted to 'talk' to the other SWF's on our way. Unfortunately with my OTHER dogs (German Shepherds and now Dobermanns) People DO get a little nervous if they see them rushing over to say hello, or play with their dogs (even tho the yorkie had the nastiest temperement of any dog I've owned so far!) So my training has been a mix of positive and correction as I canot allow them to do the same things, oh say, a poodle and maybe a labrador can do! AGAIN people's misconceptions of a breed, so it is MY responsibility to ensure that my dogs are trained to a much higher level than I would have worried about for a pom or a yorkie (Or a poodle or lab) as I do not want to give anyone an excuse to ban another dog just because it is bigger than 30 cms at the shoulder! If I have to use a prong or an e collar to ensure total obeidence at all times AS WELL as using food treats and a toy as rewards, then so be it! I would much rather have a very well behaved Doberman at my side with an e collar on that I KNOW will be compliant when out and about, than a dog that is purely motivational trained that may or may not come back depending on how hungry it is, and goes and scares small children or other dogs trying to say hello, and have a complaint over my head because my dog is a large breed! Sheesh I am such an irresponsible dog owner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffo Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 (edited) I have read the whole thread and i am sorry to say lab and poodle that i find your comments condescending and close minded. I have sat back a bit and watched. You see i like to know what is being taught and how it is being taught. I dont see that. I just see a ton of smoke and mirrors stuff.I am having a ball with what I am doing, and i am getting dam good results. To say that another trainer's methods which you have never seen or tried are a 'ton of smoke and mirrors stuff' is the most absurd and unjustified comment i have seen. and how do you expect to see anything being taught on a written forum??? I am really glad that the methods you are using are working for the dogs you have. Heaven forbid if you ever have a dog who does not slot perfectly into your methods...then you might be forced to try something else. And i can guarantee you, if you try any of k9's methods you will find they work. Simple as that. Sounds to me like someone is frightened of the unknown. Or maybe you are threatened by methods which MAY be more effective then your own? I'm sorry if you think i sound a bit mean or rude, but to have a pick at an excellent trainer like k9, you would want to have something solid to back up your claims. You have not even seen him doing his stuff for goodness sake. If i hadn't gotten his help chances are my dog would have been put to sleep by now. If you keep standing on that pedestal then one day you are going to take a big fall....but good luck to you. Edited August 22, 2006 by Rachelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeysue Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 It's easy to say, ban the correction chain when you may have a dog that will never require one. Banning in these tools is clearly a knee jerk reaction once again to individuals emotions on how, "THEY" feel about them. It seems that sensible people are suggesting education as banning always leads to the snowball effect. I have a list of devices that i'm not a great fan of , however I will not run off half cocked to raise a people's army to have them banned. It's not the answer Didn't this start out about the ecollars and police training and RSPCA. Ok. dont know about ecollars but have you ever seen a police dog NOT happy to do his work.Always happy and adoring his trainer and loving his job. Really loving it. Not many dogs are so well fed, looked after and in such a good condition. As for the RSPCA, piss off and get real. Get rid of Hugely Worthless, and get someone who lives on this planet and doesn't want his name in the papers all the time. I think he has done so much to make this society a laughing stock. Hmm. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangerineDream Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 I wonder if anyone in the RSPCA has considered how working gundogs (emphasis on the first syllable) go........I know they don't agree with duck shooting but I thought that was about the ducks not the dogs being psychologically scarred by working around guns....so that's 1 entire group of dogs out of work...and I guess that the Dobe Club better cease their temperament testing because that involves 2 gunshots behind the dog...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 (edited) L&P: No I wont. I know from these threads that I am not that interested. I have sat back a bit and watched. You see i like to know what is being taught and how it is being taught. I dont see that. K9: Thats the point of coming along to the workshops, hard to "se" anything on a forum... L&P: I just see a ton of smoke and mirrors stuff. K9: Smoke & Mirrors? Are you saying Im a magician? lol... L&P I am having a ball with what I am doing, and i am getting dam good results. K9: Maybe you might want to see the damn good results others are getting before you evaluate your success... L&P We have had all these discussions before. K9: yes we have, & you ended the last one with saying that you would come along one day, I see you have renigged on that... L&P Yes it is current that counts ultimately. K9: yes, but you talked of 3KV, thats voltage... smoke & mirrors perhaps? People would be more turned at the mention of 3000 volts... L&P: It is usually what is measured when perceptions of shock are talked about. But the prelim voltage is quite important too. Skin and muscle tissue is very non linear. I know you all have your pet theories on electricity, so go off and have some fun with them. K9: the problem here is, your talking about the theory of electricity, I am talking about training dogs, on a dog training forum... You can theorise all day, & in the time that it will take you to sprout about pre lim voltages, I will have the dog trained... L&P: If you are really interested, ask me.I am an expert at this stuff. K9: Easy Pedastel boy! L&P: Look I am interested in positive training, you are not. gee for an expert you really are mucking this up... My training in drive programs, triangle of temptation (or triangle of smoke & mirrors you migh call it), four quadrant dog training program, NILIF etc etc are all non correctional... Seems you have not sat back & watched enough.... I am happy to use truly motivational programs, I designed my own, but I am not niave enough (or pig headed you chose) to believe that one method or style works for every dog. My goal is to give people results with any dog, pleasing people like you fall way down on my list of things to do... L&P: Please advertise your website as such and i wont bother you lot any more. K9: so your bothering us lot because my website doesnt say "Im not a positive trainer?" lol... You really need to get out more.... Edited August 22, 2006 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 (edited) No I wont. Are you saing you are close minded? You see i like to know what is being taught and how it is being taught. I dont see that. Of course you dont, that is in the agend for each workshop, if you show interest in attending one you will receive it... Or you thought that K9 is going to put his ecolllar manual on here for you to read? For free? Or that all of us that PAY for his services will copy you on one, or all his emial that support us basically 24/7 if need be? Get real, neither K9 or we are a charity. He does enough free advice here and elswhere. I volounteer enough time at my obiedience club. The third is that I have no supporters. Look how many people jump to my defence! Have you ever wondered WHY? As for the police, I find it wasteful and i resent it strongly as a taxpayer that dogs get bounced because they have crooked ears. Where does it say that? I though it said that dogs got bounced back as their TEMPERAMENT wasnt suitable. Guess what - my dobie puppy wouldnt be suitable as a lap dog. she doenst have a lap dog temperament...... I challenge every one of you to pick up a mainstream positive book and go out there and make just one thing work for your dog even if the idea makes you see red like it originally did for me. This is the time I usally post clips of my "unhappy" dog for you to see how I train, but I have done this so many times, Im sure you have all seen it, wont bore you with them again. I also challenge you to take my dog that many people (including this site) consider very well trained (some consider him hopeless ) to take to the park let him off lead and show me how he does a reliable recall under distractions for you after you show him treats, ball and use a clicker. Considering he already has one, it will be really easy for you. I wonder how will you go when some unknown dogs appear from around the corner and he wont like them. You havnet answered my previous questions L&P As to various equipement - do I understand correctly? You are proposing to lift the ban on ecollars and have them restricted? how about other equipement? - halti, martingale, harness, leash - all can be used incorrectly and inflict pain and injury. I guess that the Dobe Club better cease their temperament testing because that involves 2 gunshots behind the dog...... That is 3 shots. :p Yes I have "traumatised" about 20 dogs at Easter when I was firing that starter pistol at the last test that was done in Sydney. Im going to write a letter to the Sydney City Council to ban NYE fireworks, they are waaaay louder than the starter pistol. Edited August 23, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 just came into here wow interesting discussion what about fireworks then and the new target came with real gunshots sounds should we ban them too and cap guns and no more starters pistols at little aths sorry too like to damage a dogs psyche ist there more imporatnt things for the rspca to deal with as for the rest of the thread same ol same ol amazing how these arguments go round and round a bit like politics and religion really ive seen too many gun shy gundogs it make me laugh maybe if dogs are being turned away for poor temprement it whould be a kick up te butt to breed better ones temprements that is to those breeders if we ban all the gadgets we wouldnt have much left food when used in trianing could be considered a gadget so could toys any form of collar and lead be interesting to see who can get what out of their dog with nothing but themselves My dogs non correction trained for obedience and we have had great results too but i picked my dog because i new he would work well with the methods i like to use and i will pick my next one for the same attributes cept maybe stronger nerves would be nice I have to admit i havent been to a k9 workshop yet not for not wanting to simply havent been able to manage it even with everyone trying to get me there lol but to judge someones trianing method without going and meeting them and seeing what they do is definately narrow minded. dont assume you knwo someone till you work with them and see what they have to offer. Plus ive been to two all positve clubs and found many of the dogs to be way out of control and lacking in manners unless their oner shoved food in their face and the dog happend to want it not terriby effective As for the removal of corpal punishment ive often wondered if that is whay we seem to have an increase of rude disrespectful teenagers runnning the streets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityBites Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Yeah, completely Off Topic, but I did wonder at the increase of kids with HDD and ADD and every other letter that describes rude and ignorant behaviour, right after parents were not allowed to smack them anymore................ :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RottnBullies Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 ist there more imporatnt things for the rspca to deal with :p Agreed, maybe they need to be reminded these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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