RealityBites Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Well this is kind of off topic but because I started this thread because I was curious if others views of 'good nerves' were what I thought they were so I could assess my new dog, I wanted to update on him! We started some bite work with him today, and WOW!! I could physically not hold onto him he was so excited (And I am not a small girl, I am just under 6 foot and 70 odd kgs -not telling how many odd ) And as soon as he could bite, he was very fast and deep with great hold. The trainer I was working with actually used the word "phenomonal!" I know what kennel I am going back to for my next puppy....................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Hi Guys, I'm a newbie here (so be gentle with me) I'm training my 3rd dobermann now, so in terms of dobe's...I have a little experience My first dobe was an 18mth old rescue dog who would piss himself at anything unexpected or new....by the time he was 3yrs, he would confidently face anything (including jumping into neighbours cars if they left the door open...he loved going for rides My 2nd Dobe "Daims" unfortunately passed away this morning at almost 11 years of age...he was bought from good breeders at 6mths and was alway an outgoing, energetic dog, but with the mildest temperment you could imagine. he could handle crowd situations, children sitting on his head (don't ask!!) and wouldn't give so much as a growl...but when he was "working" anyone who came near was treated to several snarling warning barks, then silence...if a threat was at hand he would instantly take protective mode, stepping between me & the threat, and would never start a fight, but if bad manners were displayed by others (dogs & humans) he would quickly finish it. 2 weeks ago I adopted another dobe from the RSPCA...he's had little or no training, showed strong drive, but unpredictable due to anxiety. whereas I could call Daims off at anytime, unless I was actually being attacked, Zillah the 15mth old PC (problem child :D) hasn't learned his lesson yet, and isn't backing off on command...still it's only been 2 weeks. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that Daims was a dobe with good nerves....he was always alert..but would ascess everything with a high degree of intelligence, if it was actually a threat..he was ready for action...if it wasn't, then he'd just ignore it. Zillah at the moment is (although he has strong drive) actually showing weaker nerves because he isn't ascessing threats appropriately yet. he's improving every day though, with alot of training, love & encouragement, and is responding really well considering his background. I worked in the security industry for 15 years (although never worked my dogs for that purpose) however, I did train them to be quite capable of doing the job if I ever decided to go ahead with it. BTW, I did train & worked my horse in security. From my experience, nurture has a far more profound effect on a dogs nerves, than nature....however nature will have alot to do with temperment. Both can be manipulated/trained by positive & negative handling ...just my 2 cents worth (hope no-one minds me butting in ) cheers Di Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 if a dog gets spooky in a new environment would that be classed as weak nerved as in spooky i mean jumps at sounds finds it hard to relax and focus and switch on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 if a dog gets spooky in a new environment would that be classed as weak nerved as in spooky i mean jumps at sounds finds it hard to relax and focus and switch on Yes that's what I would classify as thin nerves. It's probably a critical period issue in that the dog was exposed enough during the 6 to 16 window, therefore it has trouble coping in new environments. Does the dog recover or does it continue to have trouble? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 its actually my dog and he had tonnes of sociaisation lol but it depends sometimes he recovers quickly and getson with it other times he stays spooky for quite a while we dont see it much these days but sometimes it crops up hes seventeen months now just Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Some of the most "bomb proof" dogs I have come across, ie um...... show lines. Like a childs first suitable pony or horse. The word lazy comes to mind. Like a quiet type of horse, they had no go and in the dogs case little drive. I like good nerves and good drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arawnhaus Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 (edited) Slightly off topic...... I've mainly owned confident dogs who have been socialised from young etc...I recently got a new Rotty pup, at 16 weeks old however he hadn't had a great deal of early socialisation, never been out in a public place etc... We have been taking him everywhere and i've been doing drive building with him, i don't think he is weak nerved,but he has been quite jumpy out in public on occasion,but i think that's due to lack of early socialisation... He barks/growls at new stimulus (stays still doesn't go back)and is quite dominant to dogs he meets, though he also plays happily with dogs too. I understand he's only a baby,but how do i know what is weak nerves naturally and just new reaction to new stimuli? He recovers quickly usually,but he'll pull against the leash at first to avoid something he's really worried of..... Example being a shop airconditioner on the ouside blowing. He is confident around Trucks/cars/motorbikes/people/chairs falling/and loud bangs.....etc He's a 'watcher' rather then "go straight in and get" Pup... He was bought with Schutzhund in mind... Any idea's? Edited August 25, 2006 by Rottywoman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arawnhaus Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 *Bump* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 K9: Take a look at this opage on my site, 16 weeks isnt a great for socialising... Page is here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 I probably don't have the legitamacy of an actual understanding of what "shutzhound" involves (I'm a newbie to DOL so be gentle with me )....but I have had the priviledge of being companioned by 3 dobermanns....a breed which is (somewhat mythically) defined by both nerves & drive. IMHO......it really comes down to training.....I have taken on dobe's at varinging ages. stages of development & training (or lack thereof).....but each time, through dedicatication & positive reienforcement; I have achieved a level or behavioural adjustment, that has overcome whatever the dog had been exsposed to in it's formative stages./...therefore I conclude, that despite critical learning stages,,,positive training and a secure environment can overcome deficiencies in those critical stages. I accept that this may not be applicapble to other breeds....but in the realms of dobermanns...both drive & nerves are a product of envionment..more than geneticts......although there maybe dispositions either way....positive training & positve reward.....can overcome.....reinforcement can override the instinctual tendancies. ...one only has to understand the breed first Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 A: I probably don't have the legitamacy of an actual understanding of what "shutzhound" involves (I'm a newbie to DOL so be gentle with me )....but I have had the priviledge of being companioned by 3 dobermanns....a breed which is (somewhat mythically) defined by both nerves & drive. IMHO......it really comes down to training.. K9: If that were true every single breed could be trained in every single discipline... Nerves & Drives are genetic driven experience effected... Breed is not relevant. You obviously havent come accross the right situation in which training & environment will outrule a weak nerved dog as yet. Keep looking, they are everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 Well, I have two dobermanns and they are completly different to each other, as if they were a different breed. They even share some distant ancestory few generations back. One is overly human friendly the other overly aloof. Form day one. Maybe becouse one is black the other brown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 wish that were true but my sheltie who i have had since a puppy was well socialised and is very highly trained though to many would seem pretty perfect can be overcome by nerves in the oddest situations and no matter what we do its there lurking in the background his father was also nervous his mother was good though but i can see both parents in his behaviour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 A: I probably don't have the legitamacy of an actual understanding of what "shutzhound" involves (I'm a newbie to DOL so be gentle with me )....but I have had the priviledge of being companioned by 3 dobermanns....a breed which is (somewhat mythically) defined by both nerves & drive. IMHO......it really comes down to training.. K9: If that were true every single breed could be trained in every single discipline... Nerves & Drives are genetic driven experience effected... Breed is not relevant. You obviously havent come accross the right situation in which training & environment will outrule a weak nerved dog as yet. Keep looking, they are everywhere. hey! I don't for a minute conceed that I'm not "lucky"... but.....my first dobe was a rescue dog...& he initaially had very weak nerves...he would piss himself at any confrontation...or new experience!..and yet, through positive training & reinforcement, he became a very capable dog with quite strong nerves....so how do I explain this...did he have weak nerves...or not? both my other dobes I have been fortunate to get at an earlier age...and both showed strong drive & nerves. The one I bought at 6 mnths from the breeders showed exceptional nerve & intelligent drive...my recent recue at 15 mths shows strong drive, but not quite a strong as nerve...although that is changing every week!....he is becomming so more confident and self assured! maybe this is a genetic disposition of dobermanns.....not difficult to understand as they were intentionally "created/bred" for strong nerves & drive ;) However, I have also seen the consequences of a dog who has been misshandled...and the degradation of drive & nerves that that can cause....but I have also seen those dogs rise above their past experiences and perform admirably.....whether this is a nature/nurture issue is certainly open to debate ;) Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 A: but.....my first dobe was a rescue dog...& he initaially had very weak nerves...he would piss himself at any confrontation...or new experience!..and yet, through positive training & reinforcement, he became a very capable dog with quite strong nerves....so how do I explain this...did he have weak nerves...or not? K9: Dogs can urinate for a number of reasons from being submissive to UTI, or even a learned experience.. The dog could have been abused & in the past the abuse always stopped when the dog began to urinate... I cant say as I cant see the dog, your idea of weak or strong nerves may not be mine either... A: The one I bought at 6 mnths from the breeders showed exceptional nerve & intelligent drive...my recent recue at 15 mths shows strong drive, but not quite a strong as nerve...although that is changing every week!....he is becomming so more confident and self assured!maybe this is a genetic disposition of dobermanns.....not difficult to understand as they were intentionally "created/bred" for strong nerves & drive K9: what they were created for was some time ago... Remember a dog that baulks at a new situation isnt getting stronger nerves just because he no longer baulks, the situation, is no longer new... Weak nerves are weak nerves, no amount of training will change the nerves, but it may change the reactions the dog shows.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 Wow, I wouldn't have thought the topic of "nerves" could be so....debateble !!! As a 'pet owner' I think my dogs nerves are good. Example : We are out walking, sniffing the smells, enjoying the fresh air and sunshine when suddenly !!! at a fence line is a barking and running the fencline like crazy dog. My dog shows a keen interest, I keep walking ignoring it, we pass house, dog resumes sniffing the smells and enjoying the walk in a relaxed manner. Now to me, even though he may have fussed a bit (not rip my arm of raging battle for me to get him past offending house fussing though) the fact he settles straight away is good nerves ?? Is that right ?? He wasn't always so good. We used to pass by a house with two big cranky GSD's..I think they may have been trained guard dogs as they were later declared dangerous by council (according to signs on fence). It was really hard to pass that house and I couldn't cross the street as it was a one way access road and there was no path on the other side, too narrow and busy to walk on road either. Anyway I used to just stop when he was pulling, while the GSD's were going NUTS on the other side, wait till he relaxed, take a few steps....repeat till we got past with my arm still intact. So I guess you could argue he is desensitised and doesn't have good nerves ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 K9: Unfortunately Sunny, it is not as simple as hearing about an action of two & making a judgement about the dogs nerves. When evaluating a dogs nerves, there are many ways the tests are conducted & tmany ways of interpreting the results, & some times you just get a "feel" for it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 K9: Dogs can urinate for a number of reasons from being submissive to UTI, or even a learned experience.. The dog could have been abused & in the past the abuse always stopped when the dog began to urinate...I cant say as I cant see the dog, your idea of weak or strong nerves may not be mine either... K9: what they were created for was some time ago... Remember a dog that baulks at a new situation isnt getting stronger nerves just because he no longer baulks, the situation, is no longer new... Weak nerves are weak nerves, no amount of training will change the nerves, but it may change the reactions the dog shows.. just to clear that first one up...it wasn't a UIT...it was definately behavioural & took me 3 months to get him out of it on a regular basis & 2 years to finally eridaicate in any situation. & yes, I agree...I believe he had been abused before I got him. perhaps we are working with different definitions & this is where the confusion is comming in. I was originally trained in khoeler method (which I no longer use) but probably am still influenced by their definitions of drive & nerves. All my dogs ended up with confident and steadfast personalities no matter what the situation, whether it was a new one or not. my middle dobe (never abused) wouldn't even baulk at a child running out of a crowd waving a "light sabre" at him. practically ignored it..but was always on the alert for Real threats. If he assessed a threat as real, he would place himself in front of me( protective stance, leaning forward, head raised) & stand rock still, & give a warning growl if the threat didn't retreat. I class this as good nerves. However, I could call him off at any time The new dobe is slightly more agressive & doesn't back off quick enough yet, but then I've only had him 4 weeks...he is beginning to respond to the stand down /leave it commands. ...again, I sense he has quite good nerves. am I completely off track? cheers Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 A: ust to clear that first one up...it wasn't a UIT. K9: Note that I didnt say yor dog had a UTI (Urinary Tract Infection), I said dogs can urinate for many reasons & gave a few examples. A: I was originally trained in khoeler method (which I no longer use) but probably am still influenced by their definitions of drive & nerves. K9: Probably, the last book Will wrote "I think" was in the late 60's? A: All my dogs ended up with confident and steadfast personalities no matter what the situation, K9: keep in mind that all dogs have a level of pressure at which they will turn & run (avoidance). Every dog, some just higher than others.. A: but was always on the alert for Real threats. If he assessed a threat as real, he would place himself in front of me( protective stance, leaning forward, head raised) & stand rock still, & give a warning growl if the threat didn't retreat. I class this as good nerves. However, I could call him off at any time K9: hmm what drive would you call this? A: The new dobe is slightly more agressive & doesn't back off quick enough yet, but then I've only had him 4 weeks...he is beginning to respond to the stand down /leave it commands. ...again, I sense he has quite good nerves. K9: Same drive as the dog in the example above would you say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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