Just Venting

[MellG]

You get nothing but respect from me, all dogs require training and even more so the owners half the time, keep up the good work with your SWF and may more SWF's owners follow in your footsteps to be responsible owners.

[poodlefan]

I have to say that Paps, Poodles and Shelties and a few other breeds whilst not "real dogs" in many serious obedience types eyes, are grudgingly acknowledged as able to compete with the best of them.

Those three breeds (and JRTs) are common agility dogs so once again have earned the respect of others.

For any SWF (or non 'real dog') owner, the best revenge for such comments is success. Unfortunately our dogs are stereotyped by some of the people who own them - those who don't know them write them off. Their loss I say.

Some obedience instructors with larger dogs have no comprehension of the difference in training a small dog. "Don't bend over to cue" you hear all the time. My response is usually along the lines of "well if your Golden Retriever gets his 'stand' cue in front of his muzzle, why shouldn't my toy poodle?" You get to watch the wheels turn.

Like pit bull people, we SWF (and SBF) owners are judged by the worst of our ranks.

Just ignore the comments - people making them do a fine job of displaying their ignorance and lack of training skill. They don't need our help to look stupid. :D

[kymbo]

Thanks for the replies...

can I just ask what swf and sbf stands for tho? I *think* I read somewhere here small white fluffy for the swf, but the sbf has got me beaten, unless it means black?

I think I have all my terms mixed up too; I am such a n00b, but really keen ....by obedience I think I meant agility ( that's the one with the tunnels and jumps etc? in a pattern?)

I take it that agility training stems from obedience training? And what is flyball???? And does 'trialing' mean that the dog is doing it's round or is it a sport in itself? Excuse all the ignorance...*sigh

kym

[kymbo]

I have answered my q's above ^^by googling ...still don't know what the swf and sbf is tho??? TIA kym

[Erny]

can I just ask what swf and sbf stands for tho? I *think* I read somewhere here small white fluffy for the swf, but the sbf has got me beaten, unless it means black?

You're right on the money! SWF = Small White Fluffy. SBF = Small Black Fluffy.

I think I have all my terms mixed up too; I am such a n00b, but really keen

You get used to all the terminology over time.

....by obedience I think I meant agility ( that's the one with the tunnels and jumps etc? in a pattern?)

Yes - the sport/activity involving the negotiation of obstacles such as jumps, tunnels, weavers, A Frame etc. is referred to as "Agility".

I take it that agility training stems from obedience training?

Not necessarily.

There are some who train their dogs in obedience (eg "sit"; "drop"; "leash etiquette" etc) but who also offer Agility as an additional activity to their dog. I think it's a good combo (for those dogs inclined towards agility) as both activities can compliment each other.

There are others who, through Agility, have attained a certain level of obedience (eg. "here" and "stand" - used for lead outs.

And then there are others who have found obedience training too difficult and "trade off" with putting their dog through Agility. In some of those cases, I've witnessed dogs taking off without any form of skill in recall and with little regard for their owners requirements. I've also seen people with dogs who really need serious behaviour modification (eg. Aggression) but the owners attempt to 'hide' (and outwardly 'deny') their dog's issues by giving up on obedience; leadership and behaviour modification efforts and turning to agility as something to do instead.

And what is flyball????

I don't do flyball (although I've watched it) so my description may be lacking. With that in mind, I suggest to explain it to you by saying that it is effectively a "race" against other dogs from "point A" to "point B" and back again. The dog leaves its owner ("point A"), races over a number of jumps set out in a line, tramps on a ball release contraption ("point B"), catches the ball and races back to the owner via the jumps again. First one back with ball wins the heat.

Someone can correct me if I've described all or any part of this process wrongly. ;)

And does 'trialing' mean that the dog is doing it's round or is it a sport in itself?

"Trialing" means the dog/handler combo enters formal competitions in their chosen sport or field. Eg. A person might compete in obedience. This means the person enters obedience trials. Or a person might compete in agility. This means the person enters agility trials. Etc. etc.

Excuse all the ignorance...*sigh

Only ignorance if you chose not to ask. ;)

[Erny]

I have answered my q's above ^^by googling ;) ...still don't know what the swf and sbf is tho??? TIA kym

I only saw this entry once I'd finished my post above. I think you snuck in whilst I was typing it up.

[lab and poodle]

"I have to say that Paps, Poodles and Shelties and a few other breeds whilst not "real dogs" in many serious obedience types eyes, are grudgingly acknowledged as able to compete with the best of them."

I have to say that when I got my min poodle, I wasn't interested in making up the numbers. They seemed like an ideal obedience dog to me! She is very nearly as manic as my Lab when it comes to retrieves, and is a great tracker. She has the most wonderful gait is naturally elegant and precise, and learns so fast, I feel like it is cheating. As you can see from my moniker, i also have a Lab so i have seen both ends size wise, but being the naive Kiwi that I am, i never would have thought how much predijuce exists towards smaller dogs until I got mine.

Papps are very much flavour of the month in USA agility. They are smart, clever fast gutsy little dogs. In Victoria thare are at least three tracking champion paps. I would never turn one down!!

[Mooper]

BMP, how is Blossom's training going now?

Good on you for working with her. You've met my parents' little fluffies. Apart from puppy pre-school socialisation, neither of them were trained. And it shows :shakehead:

All dogs need socialisation, and I'm yet to meet a handler who doesn't need training.

[kymbo]

Thank you so much Erny!!! One last question tho HHHH In my google travels, I saw mention that the dogs must be registered to compete? My pap isn't registered ...I have copies of his sire and dam's rego, that the owner let lapse for whatever reason. I know he is pure, but no papers....Can I even do obedience or agility with an unregistered dog?

[Erny]

Can I even do obedience or agility with an unregistered dog?

Can't answer for "Obedience Trials". But I do have a friend who trials her cross-bred dog in agility. I believe she has to enter him as an "associate".

Someone who is actively involved in Obedience Trialing and Agility Trialing would be a better person to shed more light on this subject for you, though. I'm sure someone will step in here soon to clarify.

[lab and poodle]

"Obedience Trials".

You enter them as an Associate. My old lab is registerd her as an Associate because we didn't export him properly from NZ.

[wheres my rock]

you just join the controlling body as an associat

[poodlefan]

Erny:

You're right on the money! SWF = Small White Fluffy. SBF = Small Black Fluffy.

Yep! I have both white and black poodles.

[kymbo]

HHH so what is my pap classified as...he is a tri....

small, coloured, fluffy???? A 'scf' ???

hahahah

tho after eating my massage chair control cord, I can think of a better acronym

;)

[dogdude]

Hi

The trouble with many obedience club instructors concerning small breeds is that they are either ignorant of small dogs because of a lack of knowledge on using small dog techniques with the conventional obedience club style of training (praise and correction) which inturn embarresses them in front of class through lack of results. Or they have simply never personally trained one.

They often then choose to ignore them and try and dance around their lack of knowledge with the "dont like small dogs" quip, or "keep going and he will get there eventually".

I have seen and heard these comments accross a few different clubs and have never heard of any other small dog techniques offered to their owners. It only stands to reason that different methods to teach focus and heeling are required for small dogs (as well as very large dogs for that matter).

Diane Bauman, a top USA trainer, has both small, large and conventional methods in her book "Beyond Basic Dog Training". She has a series of perfect 200 scores in obedience trials with one of her dogs being a Pappilion that has the title of Obedience Champion. She uses a mixture of the conventional praise and correction methods mixed with positive re-enforcement. She believes that it is good for a dog to be "wrong" when learning an exersise, which she then uses methods to "show" the dog the required way without physical correction. When she thinks the dog feels it has a choice not to attempt an exersise, only then it is corrected.

My mother owned two Pappilions and although a high maintenance breed coat wise, were very intelligent.

[lab and poodle]

They often then choose to ignore them and try and dance around their lack of knowledge with the "dont like small dogs" quip, or "keep going and he will get there eventually".

Yes. I have seen a fair bit of both sides know, and having a bad back myself, I have a few things to offer some folk who have smaller dogs. I have become a great fan of targetting to get behaviours, and getting dogs to catch treats early on. There isn't much point luring with a treat when you are like me and your dog is well out of reach. Of couse clicking or bridging is pretty good too. Getting the food drive up a bit can work too. With a bad back, bad left side, i had a hell of a time teaching my little girl to heel, but she does and is geting pretty good. Talking about nerves, how many dogs could take getting stood on 5 or 6 times and still come back? Not a hell of a lot.

[kymbo]

Diane Bauman, a top USA trainer, has both small, large and conventional methods in her book "Beyond Basic Dog Training".

I will have a search for this for some reading matter thanks!

I think my friend will be food treats. Frodo goes crackers for cheese and liver treats, and I have been majorly successful with using them so far. But he is a fair way down, and I can only imagine the problems I will have when I actually learn stuff myself. Poor dog and me will also be learning at the same time I suppose...not the best mix ;)

I have used clicker training with our two horses, to literally teach them one thing ( to drop head on ccommand) I think I will look into the whyfors and wherefores with that too...I read the article about nerves in this forum just recently, and I think overall the little dogs I have seen are gutsy...it would be like living in a land of dinosaurs for us comparitively.

[kymbo]

I found that book, and bought a copy thru ebay america ;) Looks like an interesting read! Thanks again, kym

[bilby]

As the owner of a large amiable not-the-sharpest mutt ..

I have to say that all you SWF & SBF & STriF (that's you kymbo ) are quite right in the difference in attitude in obedience classes from SOME other dog owners & it seems from SOME so-called "trainers" sometimes as well.

NOT my present trainer who is very experienced & has dealt with and owned multiple different breeds, and the group I'm in now who are all sizes & shapes .. & some dogs excel at one exercise & others at another.

Bouf has been an very easy dog to train in basic obedience.

"Stay" is not a hard exercise to perfect if your favourite position is lying down .. all day.

Getting a good "Heel" when my hand (or tip of index finger) can rest on his head as we walk, & my bum-bag full of treats is almost under his nose really helps.

I know we got a lot more "kudos" than I felt we deserved in the past from fellow class members on previous training courses.. just because I had this "BIG DOG" under control & the smaller dogs weren't so crash hot at prolonged stays.(Possibly because they were all so much smarter and got bored ?)

And that is not what it's about at all, is it ?

Last week I crossed the "divide" myself.

Bouf is recovering from cruciate ligament surgery & my son has broken his collar bone.

So I took Axle, son's 1 year old JRT, to training last week. It was so so much harder to be at lead's length. Half the lesson I didn't even know where he was, because I was turning in much wider circles than necessary etc & he was moving way way too fast following.

Absolutely poodlefan !

Some obedience instructors with larger dogs have no comprehension of the difference in training a small dog. "Don't bend over to cue" you hear all the time. My response is usually along the lines of "well if your Golden Retriever gets his 'stand' cue in front of his muzzle, why shouldn't my toy poodle?"

& yes .. the definitive words of wisdom there ..

For any SWF (or non 'real dog') owner, the best revenge for such comments is success

Axle & I are - we ARE - going to be the best ! Once I get my act into gear ..

And Kymbo .. just go for it ! Hopefully you can find a training place like my present one where you have fun & feel comfortable & everyone cheers like crazy when Bouf manages to finally finally locate the tracking toy in full view at 5 whole paces away.

It took me a little while to find the right group but have confidence in you & your dog .. & good luck.

Edited September 7, 2006 by bilby

[kymbo]

Oh Bilby, you made me laugh!!!!!!!!!! Bouf sounds like a real character.

You know, the more I read, the more I realise this is really just like the comments I used to see with the different horse breeds competing in different things. Our Q/H did well in dressage, and the attitude change I saw when 'some' found out that he was a QH and not a anglo/tb ( he doesn't typically look too much like QH) was priceless.

Thank you for all your kind stories and hints; I have hope that I will find somewhere soon, and know what to look for as well ( in a group) Unfortunately, being in the country a bit :roll: my choices aren't huge.

The babies can start at 6 months old ?