Jefe's owners Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 While training in drive, how do you teach the 'OUT'? I've seen a method by Bernhard Flinks which is, when the dog is not looking, issue the command and then pull a full grip of the dog's coat, which will cause very intense pain on the dog, causing hig to drop the ball. A bit cruel maybe? any more positive methods? Also, when the dog knows the command, yet it doesn't drop the prey, they use a prong collar to heavily pull the leash, read a VERY STRONG correction, one I hope I never have to give my dog,.. yet what I have learned so far, when training in drive the prong is on but there is no leash connected to it, and the leash is connected to the flat collar. Again, how do you use a more positive method? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akitaowner Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 (edited) what exactly are you trying to teach the dog? i dont think i understand ETA: i think i get what you mean now!! i use the word 'drop' (i use down for lay down on the floor) i thought training in drive was simply using something that the dog wants to positively reinforce a wanted behaviour? (someone correct me if im wrong..!) simply train using positive reinforcement - when the dog does do what it is supposed to reward with treat/toy whatever the dog works in drive for. eventually they should listen to you, thinking they are going to get the reward which is more valuable to them than having whatever in their mouth... use the word 'drop' everytime dog has something they shouldnt and retrieve item from mouth replace with drive item. (thats how i taught it anyway!!) someone please correct me if im wrong!! Edited August 11, 2006 by Akitaowner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 How far along are you in drive training? I haven't started the out yet with mine - still in the drive building stage. With Diesel before I did drive training I taught 'give' with food. Maybe two toys? Hopefully K9 Force will come and answer so we don't all get it wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 (edited) use the word 'drop' everytime dog has something they shouldnt and retrieve item from mouth replace with drive item. (thats how i taught it anyway!!)someone please correct me if im wrong!! Sorry, but this method runs the high risk that the dog will learn how to get YOU to give it WHAT IT wants WHEN it wants it. All he/she has to do is go pick up something it shouldn't ....... It may well be working for you Akitaowner, and that's great if it does. But for many others it contains that element of "could come back and bite you in the ", so to speak. ;) Jeff - as you've seen, there are a number of different methods to achieve what you're after. I've tried a few (most?) of them (although, using a check chain, it's never been harsh or by way of sharp "correction"). But, as you've mentioned you're working in "drive" .... Have you used the method of walking ("helicoptering" - although not to suggest your dog is by any means "swung" at the end of the lead) your dog around in circles until the ball is released. This should produce a dog who learns that the quicker the ball is relinquished, the quicker drive initiation and satisfaction will come again. When it's happening regularly, you can introduce the cue word. Eg. "out". And/or if the dog does not relinquish the ball, stop training. Go inside. Of course, if your dog's just as keen on the ball whether it's being given movement by you or not, the dog might not think you quitting the 'game' is a big deal. This would depend also upon the relationship your dog shares with you, as well as where the dog is 'at' in its drive training. The other way I've taught this to a dog who loves to chase balls: Have two or three balls. Throw first ball. Dog returns, but won't relinquish ball. Stop. Stand still. Wait. Dog drops ball in mouth. You throw 2nd ball. So on and so forth. Once the dog is returning and automatically dropping the ball from its mouth (because it knows you won't throw it another/the other until it does ... and that's what it wants you to do), you can then introduce the cue word eg. "out" I use different methods on different dogs. Depends on the dog and what works best in each individual case. Edited August 11, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefe's owners Posted August 11, 2006 Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 What I want is create a 'In drive' command, not a compliance command such as drop or 'leave it' (that's the command I use when another dog, person is approaching, or if he's got something on his mouth, basically that;s my command for 'I don't like you doing that, stop it'). The idea behind this 'in drive' command is twofold: Have a command for dropping the prey item, but as I don't dislike biting the prey item, I want him to know that "is ok to bite it, but is mine so is going out of your mouth now". So the dog can be ready to bite again when told or given the prey item. In a worst case scenario, have a command that he will obey under drive, say, a small dog on his mouth, although I doubt this could happen. I don't let strange dogs come close to him. Unlike regular obedience commands, that are not performed when the dog is full in drive... say chasing other dog. Have you tried calling your dog in that situation? How far on the drive in training? past the drive building stage, past helicopter turns, past building focus (Gotta love Jefe in focus!), we are now slowly adding distraction, to make even more focus.... Note: We dropped the helicopter turns, now we run, play tug and hug while in drive. He likes spending time with us while in high drive, and our aim is that we are the best thing for him even high on drive, so he will always come when recalled. The way I see it, there are obedience compliancy commands, and drive compliancy commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clicking Mad Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 (edited) ... Edited January 9, 2008 by Clicking Mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefe's owners Posted August 11, 2006 Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 I thougt it would be contradictory as well, but as with any other drive command, he's supposed to drop the prey when I want, not when he feels like it... yet again, the dog must feel confortable enough to drop the item, that is, that he did not do anything wrong and that if I allow him, he can have it again... and then the contradiction is gone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 [*]In a worst case scenario, have a command that he will obey under drive, say, a small dog on his mouth, although I doubt this could happen. I don't let strange dogs come close to him. Pondering on this and feeling something is wrong with this (hypothetical) 'picture'. If your dog ever did have the opportunity to get this far, I'm thinking it would have been because he is seeking drive satisfaction from something/somewhere other than you. Your "in drive" recall should assist if your dog looks to YOU for drive satisfaction. If he doesn't, then I have some doubts that your dog would respond as you'd want him to without some aversive training behind it. And I'm saying this assuming he has already received value in doing something similar at some stage in his life? Having said this, however, I'm guessing that if you want "out" to be a "drive" command (so to speak) then you'd need to teach the dog that the word "out" and his compliance of it is a pre-cursor to drive satisfaction from you. Just as you might teach a special "drive" command for the recall and/or for "sit". I'm not sure if this all makes sense ..... my own thoughts are getting tangled up in my head, let alone when trying to straighten them out in writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clicking Mad Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 (edited) ... Edited January 9, 2008 by Clicking Mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyvernblade Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 (edited) Well I am at this stage with the new doberman. He doesn't like dropping his 'prey' item after he has captured it. I have been bugging Steve (He's changed his phone number and moved address since he met me ) and what I am doing with my boy is helicoptering on the prong (minimal pressure, I am not flying him around in a circle or anything) and I am repeating the 'Out' command until the item is dropped. Then retying him back up and starting game again. It has been VERY frustrating as this dog takes forever to drop it, (I.e yesterday he captured item 3 times and the training session took an hour and a half!) However Steve has made it very clear that to do it any other way ESPECIALLY by using forms of force (I was told at training to choke the dog until he dropped it) you create a mouthy dog when biting, as the Out command to the dog means "Spit it out or else you are going to cop it" not "Drop it because that begins the game again and that's much more fun!" With me aiming for schutzhund, I do NOT want a mouthy dog, and I'm looking on the bright side, and pleased that at least I won't have to teach him to hold anything! Edited August 12, 2006 by wyvernblade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clicking Mad Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 (edited) ... Edited January 9, 2008 by Clicking Mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyvernblade Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 LOL!! ;) So should I be scared??? Hmm I'm quite pleased, my very own 'stalker!' I shall be telling all my friends to make them jealous! Back on topic again Teased the boy twice today and am making sure I vary how many 'captures' he gets as I was stupidly doing 4 each time and then couldn't figure out why he wasn't dropping it after the 4th one! ;) So only let him get one this morning and then 3 this afternoon, and he is slowly (And I emphasise SLOWLY) dropping the tug quicker. From what I can gather by watching him, he is one of those dogs that would chase a ball all day and I think his previous owners tired of that, so he tried to turn it into a game of 'chasey' instead, as he doesn't drop anything that he grabs, even if it's the end of his lead which is already attached to his collar! Crazy dog! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 (edited) JO: While training in drive, how do you teach the 'OUT'? K9: depends on your end goal... JO: I've seen a method by Bernhard Flinks which is, when the dog is not looking, issue the command and then pull a full grip of the dog's coat, which will cause very intense pain on the dog, causing hig to drop the ball. A bit cruel maybe? any more positive methods? K9: This if Im not mistaken is a ScH video? Are you training for Schutzhund? K: Maybe two toys? Hopefully K9 Force will come and answer so we don't all get it wrong K9: Lol, hmm again end goal is important, two balls / toys often will turn the nerves of the dog on & create a mouthy dog... JO: How far on the drive in training? past the drive building stage, past helicopter turns, past building focus (Gotta love Jefe in focus!), we are now slowly adding distraction, to make even more focus.... K9: By the time you get to focus you should have been able to get the dog to give you back the item...? W: Steve has made it very clear that to do it any other way ESPECIALLY by using forms of force (I was told at training to choke the dog until he dropped it) you create a mouthy dog when biting, K9: you can create a mouthy dog, a high percentage of dogs will get mouthy if force is used here... What you will do is knock the dog out of drive though, which isnt desireable, it doesnt leave the dog clear headed. ************************* Each dog is different & there are several, although common, reasons for the dogs not to give back the item.. Edited August 14, 2006 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefe's owners Posted August 14, 2006 Author Share Posted August 14, 2006 K9: depends on your end goal...A dog that will drop the pray when asked to...K9: This if Im not mistaken is a ScH video? Are you training for Schutzhund?Yes, it was a Sch video! there it was I saw it!... no, not training for Schutzhund... Although I'd love to, I don't think Jefe is made for it... I don't think he's got the required drive, nor temperament for it. Also, I think he's not young enough for Sch training. But I wouldn't mind having such an obedient dog... Maybe the next rotti K9: By the time you get to focus you should have been able to get the dog to give you back the item...?Yes, it gives back the item, but not quick enough. I used to be able to take it from him... now he's bitting harder. Although I enjoy playing tug... and the truth to be told, I'm not sure if I want him dropping the item when he feels like it but when I order him. Same as when teaching the recall, which is, I give the 'Here' command and he comes, I want him to drop the prey when I order 'Out'. I could use 'Leave it', but I don't want to because that;s my command for 'I don't like you doing that, stop it'. I like him bitting the item, that's why I want a different command. W: Steve has made it very clear that to do it any other way ESPECIALLY by using forms of force (I was told at training to choke the dog until he dropped it) you create a mouthy dog when biting, K9: you can create a mouthy dog, a high percentage of dogs will get mouthy if force is used here... What you will do is knock the dog out of drive though, which isnt desireable, it doesnt leave the dog clear headed. I know this... that's why I want to learn a positive method for teaching this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 JO: A dog that will drop the pray when asked to... K9: no thats a step you want to achieve... JO: Yes, it was a Sch video! there it was I saw it!.. K9: ok, well using training steps for Schutzhund wont help if thats not want you want to train for.. JO: Yes, it gives back the item, but not quick enough. I used to be able to take it from him... now he's bitting harder. Although I enjoy playing tug... and the truth to be told, I'm not sure if I want him dropping the item when he feels like it but when I order him. Same as when teaching the recall, which is, I give the 'Here' command and he comes, I want him to drop the prey when I order 'Out'. I could use 'Leave it', but I don't want to because that;s my command for 'I don't like you doing that, stop it'. I like him bitting the item, that's why I want a different command. K9: ok, so you played tug with him & now he wont give you the item? This is because you have shown him that the item is valueable by fighting him for it... Now its so valueable, he wont give it to you... I can underdstand that... I cant see your dog or what exactly your doing so its hard to give advice, even the smallest difference in the way you play tug can create quite a conflict between dog & handler. The way its meant to be is the dog wanting you to take the item & make it prey again, thats how it goes in my method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clicking Mad Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 (edited) ... Edited January 9, 2008 by Clicking Mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 CM: I understand that K9's method does not involve a tug of war game. K9: Actually they can, but it depends on the dog.. I guess its hard to know what I do through heresay... Some dogs need the tug to get drive satisfaction, & thats ok, there is just a cerytain way that I do that. Your description of tug is very similar to waht I do with only a few small differences, its also a lot to do when you start playing tug in the program... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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