Growling Protective Dog

[bret]

Hi all, things have been going well for our little border collies, but i have recently run into this problem

Maiya is getting to be a little too big for her boots.

When her sister and she are eating treats and things, such as pigs ears she is very protective, and growls and barks when her sister comes near.

Worse though is that she is also not letting me pat her while she is eating, previously she had no problem with me patting her at all, now she slows down her eating, and growls at me and yesterday she barked. Is she starting to think that she is the leader?

We have them both able to wait for 3 minutes before eating and giving the ok command, I even tested it last night, I walked inside and maiya just laid down until I gave the command.

Any ideas on what it might be?

Cheers

Bret

[Flaves]

I would nip it in the bud straight away.

If she growls when you touch her, remove the treat. You should be able to touch her, pat her put your hands in her bowl, remove food from her mouth without her carrying on.

I can't stress how important it is to stop now and not have an adult dog with issues.

My jrt pup got cranky to start with, she got told of, gropwled at, put in the sini bin and her treat removed when she did it. I have not had one other issue with her, a human and food. Barker has always let me touch him when food is around.

They both got a little cranky with each other and food. I feed them seperatley and when they have treats and they growl, it they are sinbinned and the treat removed. They have bones in their run adn neither cares who have them. With a pigs ear they will sneak the other s and eat it but they are no longer growling or snapping.

They may grump a little but they just get up and get the other one.

I really can't stress how important it is to nip this in the bud.

[bret]

it is a little worse than i had thought

We did jump on here earlier when our pups were younger, and talked about the fact that they needed to be seperated, we did it as much as possible, but it seems now that maiya is the one who has taken the dominant role in the pack, well at least between her and makaibe. although with the food thing, tonight she growled at my trying to pick her up. I have been getting a lot more frustrated lately with her in her training, especially at the puppy park or somewhere where her sister is, becuase she just won't listen. I think that she has picked up on this and taken offense, that is if this can be true.

I am going to go back to my older methods of training, with more treats and affection and stuff, do you think that this will change her mind? i also read a book on dog training, which suggested the use of check chains, i used it on maiya today, and it didn't really work any different than the collar, she is a smart dog i know taht, a border collie, and i know that she isn't getting enough exercise, which i am trying to rectify, but she doesn't understand how to play with her toys, or how to fetch, there is a way you can teach this, but i am unsure of it.

there is a question in there somewhere and i hope that you guys can point me further in the right direction

cheers

bret

[Flaves]

Ok.

Growling at her dad is NOT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did you sin bin or crate her when she did it?

If not, next time make sure you growl at her and put her somoewhere on her own for 10 minutes. No toys, food etc. Just herself.

Feed her last.

You eat before her and give th eother pup food first too. Or feed them completely seperate.

I would also book in to training. What state are you in?

She is trying to establish her self as alpha. YOU are alpha and you should be.

If she wants a treat she needs to do something for it.

NILIF, nothing in life is free. I think there is a thread under training, also check out triangle of temptation adn do that with her too.

She needs to know you are the boss - COMPLETELY with no room for her to think that she can beat you.

Seriously, i would be booking her into training and starting the TOT and NILIF.

NEVER smack her but she needs to be disciplined firmly using your voice.

With check chains you need to be shown how to use them properly or you can do damage to the neck and back. It should be a quick pop not a huge drag. If you go to training they can shoe you how to do it properly.

I am in Melb and go to ADT who i find brilliant for obedience and behavioural problems.

You can always as Steve aka K9 for his help.

[bret]

Hi Kristie

thank you very much for your reply.

as for the Triangle of temptation, she already does that. she is fully aware not to touch her food until the 'ok' is given. we have established 3 minutes, where she just lies down until the 'ok'. also, we have moved to the state of me walking inside and making her wait. As for the feeding her last. I will do that from now on, i will make her watch her sister eat, and then feed her. I started taking away her treat if she growls at me while i pet her, and also her food. this has started to stop. I was going to ask all of the things i should reinforce to become alpha again, or at least to ensure she knows who it is, these things you ahve suggested are a great start.

we don't crate our dogs, if she did something naugty, would a laundry secluded from everyone be sufficient?

as for the chek, thanks for that, i thought that is how it was done, steve is supposed to be up here in september, and we will be doing obedience starting next month.

i will look into a personal 1 on one session though, to see if i can iron the small kinks out before they get out of hand.

thanks heaps

bret

[Staff'n'Toller]

Kristie! Please be mindful of the advice you give regarding aggression issues, one dog growling over the dinner dish may not growl for the same reasons another does. Going into battle with the dog or removing food could prove more dangerous, punishing the warning signs dogs give is very dangerous, you really need to have a thorough understanding of the theory behind it all before you go giving advice on a whim.

When you punish the warnings, dogs stop giving those all important precursors stiffened body, showing whites of the eyes, lifting lips, snarling etc is all saying "I am not comfortable/I feel threatened about this situation, if you take things further I might feel the need to bite you". Punish the warnings, and the dog stops giving warnings! They feel they need to escalate their behaviour because the human is not listening! Or worse still, attacking back at them for being scared!!

Firstly Bret, your dog needs to feel that not only is it safe to have a human near her bowl, it's actually good! Taking the resource away will most likely escalate your situation, don't remove her food please.

If she is anxious about her sibling going away, she may well be the lower one in the pack structure. The Alpha is generally cool, calm, collected, don't feel they need to defend much at all, as they are in control.

The history and misconceptions of dominance theory would be a good article to start with, please read it right through, the gems are at the end of the article- for you particularly the comments about rewarding deferential behaviour always works well and is fairly safe.

You don't specify which State you live in but the Delta Society Australia have Aus wide listings of instructors and behaviourists that can help you out.

Feel free to pm me if you need further info.

Mel.

Edited August 10, 2006 by Staff'n'Toller

[Flaves]

Mel, i have only been giving Bret the advice i have been given myself by trainers as i was in a similar situation. it nipped it in the bud immediately.

THe advice given was until he got to a trainer so they could give more specific advice.

I truly believe that letting the pup growl at him, and he has had maiya since she was little, would be encouraging that type of behaviour.

I am in no way trained in dog behaviour or obedience, but i successfully overcome aggression similar to this, once in an adult mal and secondly in my 5mo rescue.

It also seems that this behaviour is new, she has not always done this. So if she is trying to assert herself with Bret, surely it would be better to 'punish', by removal to let her know it is not okay behaviour?

I am not trying to be smart i am genuinely interested in your answers as a trainer.

[kamuzz]

One tip we got from Steve was to watch how we generally behaved around our dogs. For example, if you are walking say to the door and the dog is lying in your way the dog should move. If you walk around the dog you can be signalling that you are lower in the pack.

He stressed that we should be mindful of the "small" things at all times. The one-on-one time we had with him was really helpful because he got to explain things so we could understand.

Maybe you could call him for some guidance prior to September?

[haven]

Agree with Staff'n'Toller, if your dog growls when you approach her food and you go ahead and take it away you confirm in her mind that you had a sinister motive and she should work harder next time to protect her food.

Teach her that being approached while eating means that she is going to get something even better by giving her something of low value to eat (like grated carrot etc) and approching to drop something of high value while she is eating (like a small chunk of raw meat). Because you already have an established problem you may have to start from a distance and gradually get closer over time and ensure that you only give the higher value food when she alows you to approach without warning you away.

Teaching her to recall away from her food is a great technique, as is the TOT. As Kristie said the NILIF program is important and should be adopted by all dog owners regardless of whether you have behavioural problems.

Forums like this are great for sharing information, but always be aware that you should seek the advice of a qualified and experienced professional about serious issues such as aggression.

Edited August 12, 2006 by haven

[Staff'n'Toller]

Mel, i have only been giving Bret the advice i have been given myself by trainers as i was in a similar situation. it nipped it in the bud immediately.

THe advice given was until he got to a trainer so they could give more specific advice.

I am in no way trained in dog behaviour or obedience, but i successfully overcome aggression similar to this, once in an adult mal and secondly in my 5mo rescue.

It also seems that this behaviour is new, she has not always done this. So if she is trying to assert herself with Bret,

I am not trying to be smart i am genuinely interested in your answers as a trainer.

It's ok- if the pup is trying to assert themselves, and to ascertain this, a qualified professional needs to assess the dog and come to that conclusion. Ninety percent of the time dogs show this normal behaviour is because they are scared, not because they are trying to be dominant. You also need to be very sure (when using punishment with a dog) that the dog *will* defer to the human. Dogs who feel confident enough may bite in this type of situation- goes back to fight or flight instincts.

I truly believe that letting the pup growl at him, and he has had maiya since she was little, would be encouraging that type of behaviour.

The program I was speaking about does not reinforce growling, as we establish the distance at which the dog begins those behaviours, and growling is not the first indication, it's not even the second.

The method you describe is old school- yes your dog stopped, but did she understand why? Were her motivations for stopping her defensive behaviour because she understood it was the wrong thing to do? Or because you were scary enough and she deferred to you?

surely it would be better to 'punish', by removal to let her know it is not okay behaviour?

Thats a very long bow to draw, does she learn it's not ok? Or does she learn that her suspicions were confirmed- humans around her food are dangerous as she might lose her very precious resource.

I had a puppy recently, in one of my puppy pre-school groups, who was showing some pretty full on rescource guarding behaviour over her pigs ear. In four repetitions I changed her mind about having humans near her food, no aversives, or removal of food was needed, I didn't have to touch the pup, and she was happily giving up her pigs ear.

If you look closely, when approaching your dog eating now, you will probably find the defensive body language is still there, just the behaviours you punished have been inhibited. With the training program Haven describes briefly, it changes the dogs whole perception about having humans around the food bowl, much less harmful to the dog-owner trust relationship, and it changes the whole ritual, not just parts of it that the humans find inappropriate.

Cheers,

Mel.

Edited August 13, 2006 by Staff'n'Toller

[Flaves]

I had never thought of it from that angle.

Using a food based reward as Haven suggested is a great idea.

WIth both my pups i can handle them whilst they eat, they will pause and then continue and i can remove their bones etc without incedent but you have me concerned that they give them to me for the wrong reasons.

In saying that, i have never physically punished them, i have removed food and given a timeout for inapoppriate (sp) behaviour.

[Rebanne]

Personally I think you are teaching your dog to food guard. Instead of taking her food away from her why don't you play the swap it game? This way anyone should be able to approach the dog while it is eating instead of only you.

First of all hand feed the dog it's meals. After a week or so of this, put some boring old dry food in the bowl. Toss a nice tasty piece of meat into the bowl from a distance that stops the dog from growling. As the pup accepts this step closer and repeat until you can stand along side and drop the better food in the bowl. Then you progress to crouching down beside the bowl, then placing your hand in the bowl. Then you can give the pup just a few bits of dry food, offer the better food from you hand, remove the bowl, put the goody inside, return the bowl., etc. Get other people to do this too. Seperate her from her sister while doing this.

This way you are teaching your dog that all good things come from people if she lets them near, touch her bowl and her while she has food. The other way you are teaching her to give in to you but possibly other people are fair game.

I also think it is totally cruel and unneccesary to make her watch her sister eat first and you will possibly be upsetting the dogs pack order and creating further problems. If this pup is top over the other pup it is this pup that must be first for everything. Upset the pack order they have developed and you could find they are constantly fighting becuse this pup wants her spot back.

[Kirty]

Its not really advice, but I always let my own dogs and foster dogs protect their food from OTHER DOGS. In a multi dog home, if you don't allow them to protect their food, the bottom of the pack will lose their dinner. When I say protect, I mean growl, not be aggressive. However, all of my dogs (and fosters) must allow people to pat them while eating, take their food away, etc. Good luck solving your problem!

[kamuzz]

Its not really advice, but I always let my own dogs and foster dogs protect their food from OTHER DOGS. In a multi dog home, if you don't allow them to protect their food, the bottom of the pack will lose their dinner. When I say protect, I mean growl, not be aggressive. However, all of my dogs (and fosters) must allow people to pat them while eating, take their food away, etc. Good luck solving your problem!

We try to feed fosters on their own, because it would be hard on our own dogs if they had to shuffle the pack every time we had another foster.

That way we hope to avoid any unpleasant surprises too, when the foster dog is still "unknown".

[Kirty]

I always supervise feeds at my place but my dogs are not the kind to challenge a newcomer. Its very strange but if I have a dominant foster, my dogs will let it be the boss, or if I have a very submissive foster, they just leave it alone. Maybe its because they know it will be gone in a few weeks! But my dogs also don't seem to have a 'pack order' - they seem to be very evenly ranked, never fight and let each other steal each others food! I really couldn't say who was the top dog.

I have had a couple of foster dogs that had been neglected and they were so protective of their food. But surprisingly (or probably not) it was usually the fat, spoilt dogs who were most aggressive with their food! I guess because they had been allowed to be pack leader their entire life.