wyvernblade Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 Ok I have just aquired a very friendly EXTREMELY energetic, very bouncy 12 month old male Doberman. As far as I can tell he has come from a family environment living in suburbia, possibly not excercised as much as he should have been (Conjecture, I took him on as owners moving and couldn't take him with them. so I really don't know) He pulls like a steam train on the lead, even with a check chain on, and I am 5'11" and weigh over 70 kgs so I'm not a small person and he just about drags me off my feet! He has pale patches of fur on both sides of him near his hindquarters and I have noticed him sucking on his sides which is probably what has made the hair go lighter? I contacted his previous owner and she told me he has done that since he was a puppy and the vet said he'd grow out of it. I am thinking that it may be a reaction to not having drive fufilled? Is this possible? I am taking him to my vets on Monday to rule out any skin condition etc, but when he is kept occupied he doesn't stop to suck! What do behaviouralists think? Could it be a neurological problem as well? He's a very nice dog, he's not dog aggressive, very friendly, and like I said very very active! So was wondering if drives are not fufilled if this kind of behavioural thing would be common? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 Flank sucking is an OCD and is not uncommon in dobes. OCD's generally occur as a result of anxiety (and sometimes boredom) and can become a learnt behaviour as well, perhaps even being inadvertently reinforced by their owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 One of my Dobes is a habitual blanket sucker, she has always done it and she was not weaned early or anything like that. The corners of pillows are her prefered sucking thing but we dont let her have them. I have heard of lots of other Dobes doing this,l maybe your boy never got a blanket. ;) I think there was a blanket sucking topic and it seemd like lots of Dobes were suckers. Maybe you could give him a stuffed kong and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyvernblade Posted August 6, 2006 Author Share Posted August 6, 2006 Ok, so I assume it's like wind sucking in horses (Where a horse will suck on a pole of the edge of a stable door etc and suck in wind) it's a habit that they enjoy and it's self rewarding so unlikely to be trained out of. That's ok, just hadn't encoutered it before! Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 I think horses learn to wind suck through extreme boredom when stabled whereas our dog seems to do it like a comfort thing when she is resting. I'm glad she doesn't suck her skin. She is very funny, sometimes we will say 'get your ball' and she runs and gets her blankie. Sometimes she greets us at the gate with her blanket in her mouth. If she doesn't have a blanket she doesn't suck so it has never bothered me. Are you on the Yahoo group Ozdobe list? Because it would be a good question to post there and see how many Dobes suck their flanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 (edited) Ok, so I assume it's like wind sucking in horses ..... It can be, Wyv. Sort of. But don't be too quick to prescribe to "boredom" as being the cause of your dobe's flank sucking behaviour. I think OCD causes are anxiety based, in the majority of cases. If you think "boredom" and think "learnt/habitual" behaviour, you might end up thinking about preventing the behaviour (eg. Elizabethan Collar) ..... but IF it is anxiety based, suppressing/preventing this form of anxiety release (assuming it is one) could then block the dog's learnt 'coping' mechanism, which in turn can escalate the anxiety and the behaviour may manifest itself in other ways. I'd suggest: Be a leader (as perceived by the dog) Keep him mentally and physically stimulated. Avoid inadvertant reinforcement for the flank sucking behaviour. Watch closely to learn the 'signs' which might pre-empt the flank sucking behaviour. Distract the dog when you suspect flank sucking behaviour is about to commence. ETA: I have a friend who regularly looks after/dog sits a poodle for a friend of hers. This poodle had an OCD .... walking circles. Although the OCD is still there, MUCH improvement has been gained through leadership, distraction therapy as well as mental & physical activities. She is a much calmer, less "neurotic" dog now and the "circle walking" only appears under circumstances to which she is unfamiliar. Edited August 6, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyvernblade Posted August 6, 2006 Author Share Posted August 6, 2006 Yes great points Erny, I wasn't planning on trying to stop him anyway, he's not going to be shown, so it doesn't really matter, but yes I can understand if it IS anxiety related then trying to stop it would be a bad idea. I have also noticed today that he has a few teeth missing? Have no idea what would cause that, but would imagine a dog would have to have a pretty severe blow of some kind to knock teeth out? Thanks for those tips, I will keep an eye on him and see if there's any indicators before he starts doing it. Pax, I'm not on that list! Could you please PM me the details, I'd love to join! On another note entirely, took him to my dog club today to get the trainer to assess him, and WOW!! To say this dog has drive would be an understatement! We did a gun test with him- no problems, don't think he even noticed it! :rolleyes: , he met a whole heap of strangers, and wanted to jump on them and lick them all!, we got him interested in the tug toy with me holding him on the lead and I was literally being dragged across the grass as he tried to get to tug. When he did grab it he was not letting go under any circumstances, we actually lifted him off his feet for a split second, and there was no way he was letting go!! When playing with it, we tried to distract him (And think about it, I only got him yesterday so he has no idea who I am, he was chasing a tug being held my a man he'd never met in his life, and there were people, kids and dogs everywhere!) and he was 200 % foccused! I am SO looking forward to building up drive with him, he is going to be AWESOME!! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 You need to be a Yahoo member then send an email to, [email protected] with your full name, location state and town and a short Introduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyvernblade Posted August 6, 2006 Author Share Posted August 6, 2006 Ok have noticed something else about this boy, his teeth chatter as he pulling me around! Anyone remember LabLovers boy Yank doing the same thing at K-9 Force's last Victorian seminar? Do we know if she figured out what that was, and what cured it? I think this boy just has loads of drive!! I have tied him up once today and played with the tug (The trainer today gave it to me as we literally couldn't get it off him! LOL ;) ) and he was flipping himself on the lead trying to grab it!! It didn't make the slightest difference to him at all, he'd just leap up and be straight back at it again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 Would it be possible for you to tell me his pedigree name pls. Privatelly is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyvernblade Posted August 6, 2006 Author Share Posted August 6, 2006 Haven't got his papers yet, should arrive tomorrow, will let you know then. But already I am blown away by this dog! Will have to bring him to K9 Force's next Vic meet to see what he thinks of him! He's unreal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 I learned at Uni that flank sucking was a genetic condition passed on from an imported sire a couple of decades back. Some dogs inherited this OCD so badly it was self mutilation to the point of going into the muscle tissue. Also because he is a working quality dog, his drive is extreme. The chattering of the teeth shows anxiety - and probably mostly genetic but encouraged into adulthood by the previous owners. Is he from working lines? As for the drive ... YOU GO GIRL!!! You'll make a schutzy out of him yet!I wanna see that bugger track Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 I don't know heaps about flank sucking in Dobes but since someone mentioned wind sucking in horses, I do recall reading info on that back when I was working with horses that indicated it could be inherited (genetically speaking) and possibly nutritional. I do know if some people who had succes treating windsucking and crib biting in horse by supplementing, particularly with copper. Don't know if it is relevant or useful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 I know heaps of blanket/pillow/toy sucking dobes, never heard of a flank sucking one, but I guess if there was nothing to suck he did himslef? Re missing teeth, are they missing as in knocked out or missing didnt come out from the gum? My Rex run into a tree in play with another dog and knocked a top front tooth out and broke another. he had a cut lip but it wasnt major and he didnt seem in pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyvernblade Posted August 8, 2006 Author Share Posted August 8, 2006 Hmmm , well I have been watching this boy very closely and can't see any triggers for the flank sucking, i.e I could be playing with him (not drive building, just chatting and patting! ) and he'll suddenly fling himslef to ground and start to suck. Or was in lounge last night and he jumped up on chair and started to suck. Nothing seems to be a trigger so bit hard to figure out where it is coming from. If I don't take him off tie up after drive building quick enough he'll drop and start to suck, there just doesn't seem to be a common factor that I can figure yet. On the plus side, the drive is AWESOME!!! I'll be very surprised if he doesn't come from working lines as he is almost scary! I still haven't seen him actually RELAX!!! He will stop and suck on the couch but if anyone moves, he's off again and he hasn't yet gone to sleep in my presence. Apart from that habit, he is a truly lovely dog, loves our kids, is very friendly, hasn't annoyed the cat and even comes when you call him! Am very very happy with our rescue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 I found some info ... its called Flank Sucking Syndrome and the actual flank sucking is pretty much limited to Dobes. Once again some lines have it prevalent and it IS passed on down the generations in varying degrees (some dogs self mutilate) apparently these dogs are VERY friendly, people loving dogs. Unfortunately they form strong attachments to people that heighten their anxiety especially when around those people. Some triggers are: early removal from the mother rescue or being rehomed (removal from the attachment figuire) dogs with owners that have not given them sufficient attention sounds like anxiety gets him sucking. Its the dogs method of coping with heightened emotions so while to you he is sitting happily on the chair his brain says 'OMG OMG MUMS THERE HOW COOL OH HOW I LOVE THIS AND WOW I LOVE HER SO MUCH AND I CAN SEE HER" etc etc and gets himself excited so comforts himself. Same with the training. Get in touch with some breeders who have more contact with this - you dont want drive training to push him further and further into this habit. He is a high drive, high anxiety animal. Maybe some medication would take that clingy edge he has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jls Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 Hi Wyvernblade, I've never been exposed or studied the flank sucking thing,so, I'm as much a student as you, in this matter etc. Very interesting etc. But, you mentioned, this guy had missing teeth?? Is, it possible the blanket sucking thing,is due to pain with the missing teeth?? Might be worth having the vet investigate the situation etc. Might have sore gums or a mighty tooth ache Is his eating effected?? Does he drink alot??? I have to say, I love that piccy of your german shephyboy, what a beauty. Plus, can relate to being dragged by my shephy,when she was alive, she was a 40kg dynamo. My family memeber,asked to walk her, I explained she is very full on. Assured me they'd be fine. Out the door a few mins later, heard a shrek and a thump,and they were being dragged to the top of our yard to the mail box and still going. Neither one of us is a light weight either.but they didn't realise to the extent,to how full on she could be. I admit,I new she needed a lot more training,but was a bit lax etc. She also passed most of the criteria used by the police dept. Not a flinch when we put her next to express trains and noisy things of the like. Highly intelligent girl,guess that's why we miss her soo much. Good luck with your boy, jls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyvernblade Posted August 13, 2006 Author Share Posted August 13, 2006 Thanks for the info guys! Have been doing some more research on it and asking a few Dobe breeders as well. I am assuming it is anxiety based in this particular dog's case, but he us very easy to sidtract out of it which is good. Interesting point about the drive building maybe making it worse? haven't noticed that yet, and would have thought that if he was fufilling his natural drive tendencies this would lessen anxiety? He is extremely destructive too, he's averaging a bed a day at the moment So have a feeling he may not have had alot of things around him to suck on in his previous place, as I would imagine most owners becoming quite frustrated with a dog that eats everything in it's path! He has not flank sucked when I have had him out and about tho, i.e training, so would think if it was purely anxiety, then the stress of being out and around other dogs etc would bring it on? I don't know, it's very interesting, unfortunate for him, but interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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