Anxiety Question

[shoemonster]

Sorry about double posting but I know a few of the people who know lots here may not see it in general!

Having trouble with Eddie having anxiety like attacks when I am training Molly, and I'm not sure what to do about it

Here is the link to my other thread which started as asking about rescue remedy, but I know I also need some trianing help in relation to the problem

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...c=70291&hl=

Thanks :rolleyes:

[shoemonster]

Just bumping this, sorry I know there is heaps on sep anx at the moment, but this doesn't fit with the classic signs :rolleyes:

[shoemonster]

Have cut this out of my other thread so you guys won't have to go to the link :rolleyes:

This instance was when I tied him up at training, to take Molly in her class, I have done this before and he flopped himself down and slept the whole class

This time he screamed his lungs out the whole time, pulled so much I though he was either going to choke himself or pull the fence out of the ground

A few weeks ago we were training with a friend and I put him in his crate to work with Molly (I do this at home, and he is fine) and he started screaming and trying to destroy the crate

I ignored him for maybe 15 minutes thinking it is the best thing to do then it got too much so I waited for a break in the crying and went to him

He clung to me

Left him again for 15 minutes and same episode

During this time, I was really anxious too feeling guilty which he was probably picking up on, and I was probably making him worse

In general he is not bad with sep anx, he is fine when we leave for work, and not overly silly when we get home, he runs around the house with Molly, she brings me a toy and he tries to jump once (which gets ignored) then he sits for a pat

He never follows us around at home much, he prefers to sleep in the same room but unlike Molly if he's comfy he won't move room if we do

[Erny]

So Eddie only behaves this way when he sees you working with Molly?

Can you give us details of Eddie and Molly's relationship? Eg. Age; Heirarchy Status; Anything else of relevance?

ETA: How does Eddie behave if he's tethered/crated and someone else (ie not a family member/familiar person) is working with Molly, both when:

1. You are absent from the scene.

2. You are close by to Molly.

Edited August 3, 2006 by Erny

[shoemonster]

Ed and Molly are both 1 year old - they are 1 day apart in age

We got Eddie when he was 8 weeks old, and have been training him since day 1

We got Molly when she was 8 months old and have trained her since that day

With heirachy, Molly is always the one to instigate play, eddie oretty much lets her do whatever she wants until she pushes him to the edge (ie she will jump on him when he is asleep) He will wait for her to walk away from food, and he will not steal food from her, yet she will steal food from him and he lets her

When they play she will hang off him and he does not make a sound, if he cracks it eventually and hangs off her she yelps and he stops

I feel mixed but I think she is possibly the dominant one though eddie often controls the situation

Will try the above scenarios over the weekend as the only things we have tried are Eddie tied/crated while I am with Molly and he goes nuts, or Eddie with OH or friend and he pulls if we are near but forgets about us if we are further away

When we first got Molly, I could tie him and he would sleep it is only recently that he has started this

We also recently got him the desexing implant, so wondering if his changed hormones have made him sookier

We don't often take them anywhere seperately, though I have done some freestyle classes with Molly only and he stays home wth OH who takes him for a walk as he sits by the window otherwise

[shoemonster]

Oh and if Molly isn't there he still sooks and carried on, but not to the extent that he does if she is there

Also at home now he is fine in his crate while I train her, he starts little sooks but a rawhide bones can distract him, have been building him up again (they both now sleep in their crates too, he sooks from about 5.30 am in the morning to get out but is NEVER let out before 6am and he is starting to figure this out)

If we are out, the rawhide does absolutely nothing, have thought about trying peanut butter kong or soemthing but generally when he is that upset, he refuses food full stop (which is strange for my food obsessed dog!)

[Erny]

Ok - thanks for the info.

Please do try the scenario I mentioned above. The purpose is to try to isolate the link/trigger to Eddie's behaviour.

Eg. Is it Eddie's denied access to you? Is it Eddie's denied access to the combo of Molly and you? Is it a 'pack' thing and/or attention seeking?

I've read your post regarding heirarchy. Heirarchy between dogs can be quite a subtle thing and I agree that, from what I read at least, it is difficult to tell. But don't rule out that Eddie could well be holding the higher status here. They are both 1 year old and at "that age" when heirarchy is becoming important to them.

Be careful that you're not inadvertently reinforcing Eddie's sooking (eg. "... he starts little sooks but a rawhide bones can distract him"). I presume you're giving the rawhide bones to him BEFORE he starts sooking and not ONLY and ONCE he starts sooking? If so, this is ok. (You seem conscientious about avoiding inadvertent reinforcement.)

I have a couple of (small) ideas/suggestions that might assist - at least as much as I can give with an "over the internet" style consult, but would like to refrain from expressing them until we know the answers to the scenario's.

[shoemonster]

Yeah I give him the rawhide before he sooks, when he is put in the crate

I will never respond to him when he's sooking

I will update once i have figured out his trigger, thanks so much for helping

[shoemonster]

We went down to lure coursing today which was fantastic, and afterwards I tested out Eddie in a few different situations, all with him tethered

Me working with Molly, results in pulling and screaming

Friend working with Molly and me out of site, Eddie pulling screaming but not at Molly, he is looking for me

Friend working with Molly, me close to Molly, Eddie is screaming and pulling

Friend working with Molly, me a few metres from Eddie screaming and pulling trying to get to me

Friend working with Molly, me with Eddie, he is jumping all over me and not noticing Molly

Friend is Suz aka Stalker!!! Thanks chick

Did I miss a scenario? I really initially though it was him wanting to be with Molly, but after today I think it's me

Edited August 5, 2006 by shoemonster

[Erny]

Good work, SM. Now I need to ask some questions in relation to your leadership over both the dogs.

What is your interaction like with them?

Do they jump up at you?

Do they nudge you, push you for attention, games and such like?

What is their reaction to you when you first come home after an absence?

Where do they sleep?

When at rest during the day, where do they lay? (Assuming they are indoor dogs?)

General obedience to you?

When walking in (eg) heel .... do they lean/push against you?

Etc Etc.

Please answer just for Eddie at the moment (or I think I might get confused ).

[shoemonster]

He jumps up at me on occasion, not all the time, its something i am working on with him, we have been working on some dominance issues, after he decided he would pee on my leg somemonths ago, somthing e hasn't done since and we now ake him get down then we tell him,make him wait when we go through doorways etc

He doesn't really nudge push etc but he will always want to snuggle up and push into us when we are on the couch etc, but if i tell him to get down he normally does, if not i make him get down no exceptions

When i get home they are excited, and run aroud try to jump sometimes, never more than once as it gets ignored, and then he will return to me and sit and wait for a pat

They sleep in crates in the bthroom next to or bedroom (convenient for room to put 2 crates) and are allowed out and on the bed only after 6am, never before

When at rest during the day when I am home he either sleeps on the back door mat, the futon behind me when I m on the computer or in his beanbag on the floor in the lounge room

General obedience, I mainly train him, they tend to respond to me 90% of the time, and in comparison to OH - he ignore him alot of the time but will listen to me tell them the same thing in the same situation

He doesn't push against me while heeling but occasionally sits on my foot, though more when its wet

Sorry if some of my words are spelt wrong I'm using suz's laptop and the keyboard is too hard :rolf:

If he gets told off he sulks and drops - don't know if this is relevant too

[Erny]

Thanks SM.

This is what I'd like you to try, if you will. But know that you MUST be consistent with it.

1. Ignore all of the dogs' attempts to initiate contact. Extend what you're already doing. Act as if they don't exist. Get home, make a cup of coffee or whatever. They aren't there. Wait until they've gotten sick of waiting for your attention and snoot off someplace else to sniff or lie down etc. Wait another 30 seconds. Then do a recall (and, if you like, a sit at the end of the recall). Release your dog from the sit and THEN interact. Whilst it's good that Eddie will sit when you ignore him, think of it this way. EDDIE CHOSES to sit to get what he wants. He's not doing it on YOUR terms. He's doing it on his. In his own way, he could still be perceiving HIS actions as having initiated your attention.
   
2. NILIF Program. I'm sure you're familiar with this. IE "Nothing In Life Is Free". No pat; No car ride; No walk; No play; No food treat/dinner; etc. etc. without him FIRST doing something you ask for.
   
3. No getting up on the couch. At all. At the moment, at least. This is something we MIGHT be able to relax later down the track, but when we do, it will be on the basis that the dogs ONLY get up on the couch on YOUR terms (ie on a command that YOU give them). You've got it half way there .... the dogs will get off when you tell them, but THEY are chosing when to get on.
   
4. No getting on the beds ... at all. Same deal as the 'couch'. We MIGHT be able to relax this later on and allow them back on the bed but only on a command.
   
5. YOU eat before the dogs. I know many people don't believe this makes a difference and I recognise their arguments (in fact, many people don't believe being on the bed etc. makes a difference either), but I'm not here to argue what the dog is literally thinking. I'm here to 'wipe the slate clean' of ANY doubts either of the dogs (especially Eddie, as he is the one with the behaviour issue) might have of your "right to govern". (Note: It doesn't have to be difficult to "eat before the dogs" .... mix the dogs dinner up where they can view you; have a biscuit you can eat to one side of their bowls; when ready, pick up the biscuit and in full view of the dogs, eat it. Give the dogs their dinners once you completely finished eating your bicky. Make it a chocolate Tim Tam .... it's a good excuse anyway!
   
6. You can follow the TOT program as well, if you wish to. It can't hurt and can only help.
   

If you're willing and able to follow ALL of the above, I'd like you to do so for a MINIMUM period of 2 weeks. Doesn't mean you'll be able to stop at 2 weeks. I just tend to find that 2 weeks (give or take, depending on the dog/s) is the period by which behaviour changes can be expected to be noticed. If there has been any perception of doubt in your leadership, the 2 week period gives the dogs the time to (a) recognise the change in your strength as leader and to (b) learn to trust that it is not temporary ... that you ARE and will REMAIN their leader and they can RELY on it.

In the meanwhile:

1. Work on drop/stay exercises ... especially with Eddie
   
2. Avoid having Eddie in a position where he can see you working with Molly. We need to avoid "learnt behaviour" continuing to become ingrained as habitual behaviour.
   

SM - as I mentioned .... I'm suggesting all of this without observing or knowing your dogs. But I don't believe there is or will be any harm in putting this into action. It can only strengthen their belief in your leadership whether it is needed or not.

Assuming you're willing to give this a go, please alert me once you've followed everything through for the block of 2 weeks. Remember, it is important that you are consistent, especially during this 2 week period.

[shoemonster]

Thanks Erny, I will give it a go, it will be as good for me as it will for Eddie I'm sure!

[shoemonster]

QUESTION 1

How long will it take til the dogs love us again? Eddie is in his beanbag, and staring out the window, he has cracked it big time ;)

And Molly juts keeps giving us hurt sooky looks :rolleyes:

BUT I AM STRONG! I can do this

[Erny]

QUESTION 1

How long will it take til the dogs love us again? Eddie is in his beanbag, and staring out the window, he has cracked it big time :rolleyes:

And Molly juts keeps giving us hurt sooky looks

BUT I AM STRONG! I can do this

;) It can seem like that to us sometimes. But remember that any 'guilt' feelings you may be feeling are simply anthropomorphism at work! I'd suggest there will be a bit of confusion at the start (change of rules), then maybe a bit of pushing/testing of the new boundaries you've set (can they REALLY trust in your leadership?). If there has been (even the teensiest bit of) leadership imbalance in the dogs' minds, you're shuffling the heirarchy ladder to really raise your level well above theirs.

Keep at it ..... I tend to find dogs really love you for it. Assuming leadership is an issue (to whatever degree here), think of how much easier and better you're making it for them by taking off any pressures they (especially Eddie) might have been feeling in their perceived role of "leader".

All of this 'work' you're doing is leading to something, SM. It's not necessarily going to fix Eddie's problem straight off and without other steps to take, but I want to make absolutely certain that leadership foundation is in place and rule that out as the possible ongoing cause of Eddie's behaviour. Let me know when the 2 weeks is up. Might feel like it's going to be a lifetime away right now, but before you know it, your actions and interactions with them in this way will become second nature.

Edited August 6, 2006 by Erny

[shoemonster]

Thanks!

I'm feeling really positive with this, I did some short training (trick training) with them earlier, and they were more responsive than they have been in ages which was interesting

I will pm you and bump this thread when my 2 weeks is up ;) Thanks again

Bel

[shoemonster]

Erny, well our 2 weeks is up

I ignore them when I get home

I eat before they eat

They aren't allowed on couches or beds

They sit or drop stay before they get their dinner (which we did anyway)And every pat, treat etc has to be worked for

They are still trying the couch and bed occasionally, but are really 90% of the way there

They seem to be much more reactive to us, and much more willing to please

For instance today at training, Eddie was over excited at agility and barking, jumping and nipping at my legs so I would tell him to drop, which he would do instantly

A few weeks ago he would have kept carrying on until I forced him to drop

His recall has improved 10x over, and he sticks by me alot more

There has definitely been a big change in his behaviour, so where do I go from here? Continue as we are, or make small changes?

Thank you so much for all your imput too, I really value it

[shoemonster]

I'm open to suggestions from anyone else too

[Erny]

SM .... this is where it becomes difficult to steer you without me knowing/observing the dog. I'm going to PM you.

[shoemonster]

Thanks for your help Erny