phatdex Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 hahaha, I am guilty of finding something wrecked and saying "who did this?!?!?!" Both my dogs look guilty when I say that. So I dont belt either of them! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 (edited) When I adopted my girl 6 years ago, I used to come home and she would cower .... not shaking with fear, but just cower and would approach me very hesitantly and slowly, with tail wagging but lowered and head lowered. I noticed that she would raid the garbage bag, in those early times (anxiety) and I can only deduce that she used to get told off for it when her previous owners saw the same/similar on their return. She was such a sensitive sole .... it took me a long time to get her to become confident that no matter what, there would never be any admonishment aimed at her when I got home after an absence. Sweet Kal. RIP Edited July 24, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Sweet Kal.RIP Indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baja Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 After reading some of these examples, now you know why I frown so much on Anthropomorphism. When I hear the positive crowds wailing on about correction chains and how cruel they are etc. There are plenty of problems like these occuring right under every ones noses.ignorance used to be biss but there are no excuses anymore One thing life has taught me is never genralize.... I've been training dogs for a long time owned a variety of breeds, compete successfully definitely agree with your comments on anthropomorphism but disappointed at your one eyed attitude toward positive training. If used correctly it works you can't make a Killer Wale co-operate by using negative methods so why choose to use coercive methods on your dog? I don't use choke chains on my dogs and owning five medium to large breeds which I take out every day and receive comments such as "I wish my dog behaved as well as your bunch" speaks for itself. I use fitted plain collars and normal leads, none of my dogs pull on lead, they come when called and stay where put. I currently have one new youngster who's a bit of a handful but this is changing. Some of my dogs are rescue dogs and came to me with behavioral problems but are now well adjusted and well controlled. It's not the methods or the dogs getting it wrong the problem is generally at the top end of the lead. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 I've been training dogs for a long time owned a variety of breeds, compete successfullydefinitely agree with your comments on anthropomorphism but disappointed at your one eyed attitude toward positive training. If used correctly it works you can't make a Killer Wale co-operate by using negative methods so why choose to use coercive methods on your dog? I don't use choke chains on my dogs and owning five medium to large breeds which I take out every day and receive comments such as "I wish my dog behaved as well as your bunch" speaks for itself. I use fitted plain collars and normal leads, none of my dogs pull on lead, they come when called and stay where put. I currently have one new youngster who's a bit of a handful but this is changing. Hi Baja, Dogs don't have the same intelligence level as Killer Whales. Anyone stupid enough to get in a tank and use positive punishment on a whale would be asking to be thrown up against the tank and crushed, hense why they use clickers and reward based training, plus the whales get it a lot quicker. Not to mention, not many people own whales and have them threaten the neighbours, get into the bins, attack the other animals around the house. Like you Baja, I own several large dogs and I would rarely punish them these days as they understand their place in the pack, are very happy that i'm the Alpha and lifes good. I train my parrot using positive methods with great results, however with dogs, I have always found that using a combination of any required method is the essence of a smart trainer, a satisfied owner and a happy dog. I'm not opposed to people training positive methods at all. If they have the time and are willing to not turn away the excessively naughty dogs as well, great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 OK, I admit it. I treat my labs like human children sometimes. I cannot help myself. Of course I know they are dogs, but they try so hard to understand my requirements, and we work together as a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyvernblade Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 I have always thought that to treat a dog like a 'dog' one must understand where they came from and their original pack structure. And in a pack of wild dogs, the Alpha will still use 'punishment' to correct a subordinate, which is why check chains or prong collars to my mind are a much better correction than a smack or a slap as it is more like a 'bite' to the neck, yes? Again, it's the whole not thinking of the dogs as humans, OR associating methods we use to train them with how we would treat other humans. (Altho I've met a few people that a swift sharp prong collar correction wouldn't go astray on! ) I think it is finding the balance between the two that will create a happy partnership where you both benefit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickyp Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 I just came across an article that made me think of this thread. Do dogs think?. I like the example of Blue, the Rottweiler. His explanation makes good sense to me. It's certainly a better one than the dog being angry about the owner going to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 (edited) ... disappointed at your one eyed attitude toward positive training. If used correctly it works you can't make a Killer Wale co-operate by using negative methods so why choose to use coercive methods on your dog? Hi Baja. Without forgetting that 'avoidance' training involves negative AND POSITIVE training methods (often overlooked when a discussion takes place on this sort of topic), it's not that negative methods are used to attain co-operation ............ Rather, it's the negative consequences that teach the dog which road NOT to travel on (in its best interest) and the positive consequences that teach the dog which road WILL achieve good things. I've just returned from a trip from QLD, at which I visited Sea-World. Whilst watching the Dolphin 'show', the commentator made particular mention that when the Dolphins do their trick, they receive a reward (fish), but that sometimes, they simply don't want to do their trick (fish or no fish) in which case they'll just swim around on the bottom of the pool and avoid surfacing. Apart from the points that HR posted (above) in response to your post, Baja, I'd like to add here that Dolphins, Killer Whales etc. etc. are hardly mammals that we adopt and expect to blend into our 'civilised' community as we do our dogs. We might expect the Dolphins (or Killer Whales, as in your example) to 'make mistakes' and refuse the 'tricks' (in which case, the spectators normally laugh and regard as 'cute'), which is fine. Their interaction with humankind is limited, given the natural limitations of their watery world. But who will pay the price when a dog does not behave in "OUR" world in a manner which is acceptable to the general public, amongst whom we thrust our faithful friends? And who pays the price when a command to recall away from a (eg) busy road is not met? Can we afford to accept that 'cute' mistakes might occur when the price could be as high as our furry friends' lives? In those instances, do we accept that merely withholding the dogs' "fish" (so to speak) is and will always be sufficient to attain the higher degree of reliability we require in face of the fact of their high interaction amongst us humans? I don't think it's that we are "one-eyed", Baja, but perhaps that the broader picture has some permanent unpleasantries that we seek to avoid. Edited August 1, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borders On Insanity Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 :rolleyes: A very well written, clear and precise response erny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 :rolleyes: A very well written, clear and precise response erny. My turn to thank you, BOI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardog Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Welcome back Erny, I bet it was warmer up north than here! I, too, would like to send my on your response to this interesting topic, I wish more dog people would take this on board with their training and general rapport with our canine buddies. :rolleyes: glad you are back Julie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsD Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 I train my parrot using positive methods with great results, however with dogs, I have always found that using a combination of any required method is the essence of a smart trainer, a satisfied owner and a happy dog.I'm not opposed to people training positive methods at all. If they have the time and are willing to not turn away the excessively naughty dogs as well, great. Interestingly some of the comments I've read about training (not this thread but others) almost put me off posting in the training forum, but I figure if there is a problem, it's theirs, not mine . I totally agree with you HR, a dog is a dog & different dogs need different methods (& a combination of those methods) - the most important thing is the end result ie a happy dog who does what is asked of it. Erny - good post too :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 :D Well written Erny and welcome back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 (edited) Sorry to steer off the main topic, but I can't let the warm "welcome backs" and :D for my post to pass without comment. Thanks guys. Julie - need to catch up with you. I'll look up your number and will call asap. Oh .... and yes. Weather was 21-25 degrees. Loooooooovely! :p And Kelpie-i .... will catch up with you soon too. Hope pup's doing his stuff and you're both (all!) having fun. Apologies to the OP and to HR for the interruption to your thread. I trust you don't mind too much. :D Edited August 2, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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