Question For Hr

[Rom]

Gidday HR,

In another thread you made reference to anthropomorphism being cruel.

Instinctually I agree with you....just feel in my gut that its correct, but am having trouble coming up with solid examples. So was wondering if you can help out here?

I can come up with vague kinds of examples, like feeding dog on human diet - dog gets diet related diseases etc.

Cheers in advance for any help you can give!

[Erny]

Hi Rom. Expecting dogs to think and reason as humans do, then punishing them because they're not responding as we intended to (but ARE responding to the mixed messages we're sending), is cruel.

Nurturing fear behaviour because we think dogs receive these messages by way of re-assurance, when in fact we are encouraging and making it worse, thereby increasing their anxiety, is cruel. Ok - some people do this inadvertently and can be forgiven, but I know of others who, even though they've been informed, continue to do so because the dogs are filling the humans' void and they refuse to change.

Sorry to butt in, but as HR wasn't here right now, thought I'd jump the queue ;). I'm sure HR will have some good 'pearlies' to throw in here by way of answer to your post, once he rocks on in. ;)

[Rom]

Cheers Erny

;) in any time you like ;)

[Kelpie-i]

ooh ooh, I've got a couple more for ya...

This occurs more in people with small, lap dogs. Constantly holding the dog in your arms, both indoors and outdoors in public, because of its small size and its contant shivering and then becoming angry or frustrated with the dog when it starts to growl at people who approach.

Letting your dogs out of the backyard on their own for a wonder, asking them to be home by a certain time and then scolding them for not returning at the time you stated.......don't laugh this is a true occurrence!!!

Edited July 21, 2006 by Kelpie-i

[poodlefan]

I've got a couple:

Equating a dog's sexual behaviour to one's own... eg. men who won't get a male dog desexed because its "cruel" or people who think female dogs "need" to have a litter.

Washing dogs every day... because that's what people do (yep, know a couple of instances of this)

Constantly, dressing dogs in clothes which don't fit their bodies correctly.

Edited to add some more:

*Confusing "love" with "lack of discipline" with resultant behavioural issues

Treating dogs and human family members as equals in the pack - with resultant behavioural issues.

Treating early signs of aggression and or guarding as "cute" - with resultant behavioural issues (you see this in smaller dogs)

Edited July 21, 2006 by poodlefan

[Herr Rottweiler]

Erny yes you addressed it well. So did Kelpie and Poodle with some great example there.

The definition of Anthropomorphism is, seeing animals or the world itself as having human characteristics, particularly as having feelings and motives like those of human beings.

I loath hearing people tell me, "My dog did [something] to get back at me because I left him alone for 8 hours. Especially people who should know better.

The worst case scenario of this is when people come home, call the dog to them then belt into the dog for taking clothes of the line and have the nerve to tell you that the dog understands why it recieved the belting. Not only is this classic Anthropomorphism but there are so many crimes committed to the poor old dog that he has no idea what is happening. Being belted or punished for obeying a recall is sickening!

Now for my positive training mates, (not all of them ) who encourage people to believe that their dogs think on a higher level than what they are capable of doing leads to more problems because now we have a dog spiriling out of control not knowing who's supposed to be in charge. This is the pandora's box of dog training.

Even when I see in people's posts, "I'm owned by a [insert breed]" it makes me cringe. Most times I know it's a tongue in cheek statement but for some of the guys I can see why they would have trouble telling me what colour an Orange is.

I always know when someone is going to be ontop of a problem with their dog and I determine that by the way they treat the dog. When they treat a dog like a dog and respect the way dogs think, then the battle is 70% over.

Just for the record, I do talk to my dogs BUT i'm under no illusion that it will ever get me anywhere, it's of no benefit to dogs and I don't expect a human response or action. So it creates no harm and it's bond building the way i do it.

Edited July 21, 2006 by Herr Rottweiler

[Kelpie-i]

Well put HR.

Like you, I see situations like these more times that I'd care to and it's always the poor dog that cops it in the end.

Now for my positive training mates, (not all of them ) who encourage people to believe that their dogs think on a higher level than what they are capable of doing leads to more problems because now we have a dog spiriling out of control not knowing who's supposed to be in charge.

The famous Barbara Woodhouse mentions similar in one of her earlier books. She accurately predicted that the growing popularity of purely positive methods and the notions attached to it would mean the unfortunate death of many good dogs.

Some very good points PF!!

Edited July 21, 2006 by Kelpie-i

[wyvernblade]

I hate the one where people come home and the dog has trashed the house and they say "He knows he's in trouble because he slinks away" So then they punish it. We have the same problem in horse training, people attribute more intelligence and human characteristics to these animals that don't exist, and I personally believe that until you totally understand where an animal is coming from, and how and why it behaves the way it does, you are never going to be able to train it. It's funny or cute to make out that dogs (Or horses) think in human terms and make them seem more human, I do it all the time! However I am well aware that they are not human, nor do they have human emotions or reasoning ability. It has to be kinder to the dogs to be able to interact with them in their 'own language' rather than trying to enforce what to them must be alien concepts, by trying to make them more human, or expecting them to react in a human manner.

[BrunoBella]

This is a great thread

I have always been critised by people for treating my dogs as dogs. Making the poor things lie in the dirt when there are perfectly good beds inside. Since I seen these discussions on Anthromorphising I am much better able to reply to my critics. I also pay very close attention to my interaction with my dogs to make sure I don't accidentally do any of these strange activities

I don't expect my dogs to understand anything bar what I've taught them. I did start off using totally positive training but soon discovered that this did not work for Bella.

I also find myself picking apart any posts on this looking for Anthromorphysers

[arawnhaus]

Here's a classic!....................."My Dog 'ate' my shoes because he 'hates' me"

[Borders On Insanity]

I loath hearing people tell me, "My dog did [something] to get back at me because I left him alone for 8 hours. Especially people who should know better.

The worst case scenario of this is when people come home, call the dog to them then belt into the dog for taking clothes of the line and have the nerve to tell you that the dog understands why it recieved the belting. Not only is this classic Anthropomorphism but there are so many crimes committed to the poor old dog that he has no idea what is happening. Being belted or punished for obeying a recall is sickening!

Perfect example of that, some people we know here have a mixed terrier and a cattle dog. Neither have any training and receive no exercise and limited attention. The people work upwards of 14hrs a day and the dogs are left with free roam of the house. Naturally the dogs become bored, chew, dig, etc. How do they handle it? When they get home they hold up or point to the damaged item and ask in an extreemly stern voice, "Who did this?" Whoever looks the most guilty gets a flogging. And yes, they use the rationalisation that the dogs know what they've done wrong!

[Erny]

When they get home they hold up or point to the damaged item and ask in an extreemly stern voice, "Who did this?" Whoever looks the most guilty gets a flogging.

I'd like to know who they are. I'd like to go over to their place, point at them and demand gruffly "Which of you do this?" and then give whichever looked the most guilty a flogging. And I'm talking about the humans, not the dogs.

Or maybe I should telephone them and say in an eerie voice:

"I know who you are and I saw what you did ........................... " and spook the hell out of them.

Only those of you who saw the movie would understand this last part. What was it ..... "Dial M for Murder" ????

Edited July 22, 2006 by Erny

[Borders On Insanity]

When they get home they hold up or point to the damaged item and ask in an extreemly stern voice, "Who did this?" Whoever looks the most guilty gets a flogging.

I'd like to know who they are. I'd like to go over to their place, point at them and demand gruffly "Which of you do this?" and then give whichever looked the most guilty a flogging. And I'm talking about the humans, not the dogs.

Or maybe I should telephone them and say in an eerie voice:

"I know who you are and I saw what you did ........................... " and spook the hell out of them.

Only those of you who saw the movie would understand this last part. What was it ..... "Dial M for Murder" ????

Wanna come and visit me? They live just around the corner and I'd love to be there to see the looks on their faces! Always a spare bed for you at my place Erny!

[Pippi]

Perfect example of that, some people we know here have a mixed terrier and a cattle dog. Neither have any training and receive no exercise and limited attention. The people work upwards of 14hrs a day and the dogs are left with free roam of the house. Naturally the dogs become bored, chew, dig, etc. How do they handle it? When they get home they hold up or point to the damaged item and ask in an extreemly stern voice, "Who did this?" Whoever looks the most guilty gets a flogging. And yes, they use the rationalisation that the dogs know what they've done wrong!

How sad is that - should be compulsory for people who want to own a dog to attend some basic dog behaviour classes.

A few more:

My dog is jealous of ............(insert appropriate name, e.g. husband, wife, children, friend etc etc)

My dog looks so guilty when I growl at her, she knows she has done something wrong.....

I left my dog at home so to punish me he trashed the house........

Bring on licencing to own a dog......

[Borders On Insanity]

How sad is that - should be compulsory for people who want to own a dog to attend some basic dog behaviour classes.

I agree with you Pippi but should also add in there that obedience classes should be wider available in rural areas. Maybe instead of spending so much money on banning "dangerous" dogs the government and local councils should put that money into better ownership and training. I'd love to take my boy to classes but the nearest one is over 2hrs away (not a single one in my shire!) and unfortunately I can't attend on a regular basis. Sometimes not taking your dog to classes is not by choice but due to reality.

FYI though, he does go when we can make it and I have trained dogs previously so I have a basic knowledge and we work on it at home. Training forum has also helped immensely .

[Herr Rottweiler]

After reading some of these examples, now you know why I frown so much on Anthropomorphism. When I hear the positive crowds wailing on about correction chains and how cruel they are etc. There are plenty of problems like these occuring right under every ones noses.

ignorance used to be biss but there are no excuses anymore

Edited July 22, 2006 by Herr Rottweiler

[Erny]

There are plenty of problems like these occuring right under every ones noses.

ignorance use to be biss but there are no excuses anymore

Spot on, HR!

People MUST learn that human emotional instinct is at odds with dogs, and that if we are going to interact with them as we now do, WE MUST acknowledge they are dogs, and interact in a manner THE DOGS understand. We have the power to communicate at their level - we need to exercise that.

Edited July 22, 2006 by Erny

[Herr Rottweiler]

Yes Erny! That's right on the money

[Rom]

ignorance used to be biss but there are no excuses anymore

So long as there remain instances where ignorance can be a defense for cruelty I think there will still be problems!

Thanks to everyone for their replies.....I wasn't as ignorant on this subject as I originally thought!....Knew some of the stuff, just hadn't pigeon holed it under the tag 'anthropomorphism'.

[Dol_sam]

Just for the record, I do talk to my dogs BUT i'm under no illusion that it will ever get me anywhere, it's of no benefit to dogs and I don't expect a human response or action. So it creates no harm and it's bond building the way i do it.

Hear hear. I talk to my animals all the time, mostly for my own therapeutic benefit. The cats look at me strangely when i ask them what on earth they've been doing all day, as the washing up is still in the sink and the carpets still need vacuuming. Are you telling me they don't understand?? I thought they were looking at me strangely cause i've clearly omitted to notice their lack of opposable thumbs and hence their inability to hold the dishwashing brush! Surely it's not that they don't understand english??

You're right though, that phenomena of 'flogging the one who looks the most guilty' is so common. I truly can't believe people genuinely think their dog sits back after digging a hole, emptying the garbage bin out all over the floor, or eating the clothes off the line and thinks "oh SH#t, now i'm gonna cop it when they get home...."