squeak Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 I'm currently toying with the idea of doing an instructors course some time in the future. I've been looking at the two instructor courses that I can find, the Delta one & the National Dog Training Federation, and would be very interested to hear feedback & opinions from people who have done either or both courses. I'm interested in why you chose to do one course instead of the other, and if you have done both, your thoughts of what benefits you got from each course. I guess in honesty, I'm probably leaning towards the NDTF, because at the moment, I'm not entirely convinced about "purely positive" training, which from what limited information I can find, seems to be what Delta promotes.... but I am willing to be corrected on this. If anybody can give me any ideas on time commitment & cost of each course (I've sent away for some info too), I'd be grateful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Here's what I would suggest Squeak. If you're an open minded person and you want to learn the complete picture then I would recommend the NDTF course. I have completed all the courses with the NDTF and it exceeded my expectations as far as institutional knowledge. I was considering doing the Delta course as well, however I was turned off it because I personally found some of the people within Delta to frown upon people who don't agree with their methodology. It almost appeared to me to be like a dog trainers version of the freemasons. In saying this, it is only my opinion and I have friends in the industry who have completed the Delta course and enjoyed it, however they have nothing to compare it too as they know no other way. Good luck in your decision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akitagal Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 (edited) Ello ello, I also when first wanting to do a course in dog training looked at both these courses. I had decided to do both, starting with Delta then the NDTF one. I then could not go through with the Delta course as i could not do the live in componant. I thought the Delta one would be good in that it would be detailed with the "positive"( i am unsure why it is called that) side to training. Thinking back I am happy I did NDTF first (not sure if i will still do delta course). I liked the NDTF course as it went into all methods of training. I learnt how dogs learn and why events cause a dog to learn including why certain things may even cause a dog to learn to not learn:), it teaches what the advantages and disadvantages of particullar peices of equipment are, how they are ment to be used, why it works when used in the correct manner, why it may not be the right choice in circumstances, & so so much more!!!. hope that made sense! For me i felt Delta was limited in that you can not use particular equipment or methods, for me I wanted a thorough understanding of everything!! so i can then decide why or why not i wish to use a particular method or peice of eqipment in a particular situation with a particular dog . BUT i have not done the Delta course so i can only compare by what i investigated by speaking to those who have and by reading their literature. I was dishartened that when i did sign up for the Delta course i was ment to find a mentor, but it proved difficult as no one was really happy to do that, i was told for fear i may eventually be competition for there buisness, fair enough but dissapointing as all i really wanted to do was learn all i could, and really i think it should be about getting instructors out there with knowlede for the betterment of dog training and therfore dogs. But I do know of others thou that had no problem with this so may be just who i approached. I have never run into trainers being secretive with this course, in fact it is the exact opposite. They share their knowledge and are very happy for you to ask questions-they encourage that you do!! The course has a sound scieintific basis and also if you were to do the bare minimum you would still come out learning a hell of alot! I think any learning is what you make of it, but you have to have the basis of correct, unbiased, detailed and complete infomation to build upon. I loved learning at NDTF that i decided to grab every opportunity to learn and experience all i could. I utalised all the trainers and rescources i could and lucky for me NDTF had alot of rescources to utalise:). I loved also the electives you could do which taught me about scent detection and assistance dogs. I am rapped with the outcome of doing this course so would recommend it to anyone who is serious about learning about dogs and the training of them. Time commitment the course info will cover but i decided to put in much more as i think you get more out of it when you immerse yourself into it-but then again this is the way i learn. AkitaGal Edited July 17, 2006 by Akitagal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 (edited) Same thoughts as HR. IMO, doing the Delta course is like saying "I have a preferred method of training in my mind, and I want to learn about THAT" (to the exclusion of all other possible methods). Every dog is different and this also makes every problem you might encounter in dog behaviour, different. When you have only learnt a limited number of methods, or even only one - whilst you might be an expert at its administration, YOU are limited by your knowledge. With the NDTF course, you learn each of the 4 quadrants of training. The effects as well as affects. You leave the course with a knowledge of all and thereby giving you the choice as to which method you adopt as your 'preference'. But you also have the other methods 'under your hat', to employ in the event that your 'preferred' method is not sufficient for any one or number of dogs. It also enables you to tweak your preferred method - ie combining different aspects of each or any training quadrant. I do this quite frequently and is probably why I have difficulty teaching over the internet, because what I might do with one dog could vary by degrees for another. But I have the flexibility to match the individual dog and this itself is a valuable asset. I would like to undertake the Delta Course, simply to further explore the specific training method they use and maybe, or maybe not, pick up additional training 'tips' of which I might not be aware. But the cost of the course for this purpose only is too expensive for me at the moment. There are some wonderful Delta people with whom I have had some very open and interesting dog-related discussions, but then, as HR mentions, there are those that will not entertain the idea of any other training method than the one they know and look down on the NDTF trained people. I don't know of any NDTF trained people who have that same attitude in return .... they are all, to my knowledge, open-minded. They have been trained that way, without bias. And this is my own very honest opinion. Edited July 17, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravensmyst00 Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 I'm currently toying with the idea of doing an instructors course some time in the future. I've been looking at the two instructor courses that I can find, the Delta one & the National Dog Training Federation, and would be very interested to hear feedback & opinions from people who have done either or both courses.I'm interested in why you chose to do one course instead of the other, and if you have done both, your thoughts of what benefits you got from each course. I guess in honesty, I'm probably leaning towards the NDTF, because at the moment, I'm not entirely convinced about "purely positive" training, which from what limited information I can find, seems to be what Delta promotes.... but I am willing to be corrected on this. If anybody can give me any ideas on time commitment & cost of each course (I've sent away for some info too), I'd be grateful. I am looking into the NDTF course as well - have had a look on their website and so far I like what I see. Would be nicer if they posted to full course cost on the website though. I will definitely follow this thread with interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted July 17, 2006 Author Share Posted July 17, 2006 Another question - for those who have done the NDTF course. Who has done the course by distance education??? If you have, what did you think of it? Do you think you would have gotten more out of the course if you had of attended it in Melbourne??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petmezz Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 I'm currently toying with the idea of doing an instructors course some time in the future. I've been looking at the two instructor courses that I can find, the Delta one & the National Dog Training Federation, and would be very interested to hear feedback & opinions from people who have done either or both courses.I'm interested in why you chose to do one course instead of the other, and if you have done both, your thoughts of what benefits you got from each course. I guess in honesty, I'm probably leaning towards the NDTF, because at the moment, I'm not entirely convinced about "purely positive" training, which from what limited information I can find, seems to be what Delta promotes.... but I am willing to be corrected on this. If anybody can give me any ideas on time commitment & cost of each course (I've sent away for some info too), I'd be grateful. hi squeak i'm almost finnished the NDTF course, and have found it to be wonderfull. the knowlage they give is ammasing, and it dosn't roule out any training style you allredy have, but it will add to it tremendacly. the instructors are great, though you get the occasional "militry style" instructor, wanting spercific wording in relation to questions. not to bad though if you have heared the words before and understand them lol (i didn't). as for the time commitment...... alow extra then what is in their information hand out. it has been mentioned with in the class i'm with, that they feal extra time was needed for things. start your praticall assesments asap, they are not easy. do extra obediance houres early, that way you can consentrate more on your own dog training latter for the assesment tasks. i can tell you that travaling to the lectures takes a lot out of you, and has the inconveniance on not being able to experament with what you just lernt strate away. i found this frustrating. you will be given the course cost, and allow travel and accomidation money. their is a B&B with in walking distance for about $80 per night. every thing ealse is $90 + and with out a car is a pain to get to Boronia. alternativly the backpackers in melbourn city are cheep, but allow 1 hour of travel time to get to the lectures. the reasion i decided on NDTF and not delta... esentually what you have typed highlited in bold type. i persionaly beleave at some stage in some dogs lives their may be the need to administer punishment to a dog. delta would not teach this so that course didn't appeal to me and the way i fell training is most effective. i would like to do the delta course to at some stage but not just yet. good luck with what you choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 I am looking at doing NDTF as well so can someone tell me what the fees are like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 (edited) In all honesty, I couldn't tell you now. The course has changed since I did it ... it comprises of more units than it used to, as well as many more electives. The cost of the course is dependant on things such as what unit electives you choose to do (or not) as well as, I think, prior experience ....... (eg. RPL) Best thing would be to contact NDTF and ask them. (Ph. 03 9761 0406) Don't worry - they are not the sales people type who think by getting you on the phone they've got you hooked like a fish on a line. Sponsorship is also available, but you'd need to ask them how that works - I think it depends on the form of work you're in and whether your organisation is willing to sponsor you, which brings the price down considerably. But don't take my word for it as I am not involved at management level. Edited July 17, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 I may be wording this a little strongly, but I think any education that discourages you from exploring alternatives is not a solid one and may perhaps be more akin to brainwashing (not the exact word I'm looking for....its right on the tip of my fingers....just can't get it down). While am in total agreement with positve training methods, if you rule out adversives and corrections entirely, then you may be limiting yourself to only working successfully dogs with a set range of temperaments and behavioural problems. I think that the major issue that purely positive trainers have with corrections and adversives is that in the wrong hands there is a fine line btn these and abuse, and this can be avoided with a well rounded education. They also overlook the fact that adversives and corrections are a natural part of learning for dogs in many environments...and not just wild dogs....how many times have you seen a pup stick his nose into a hot cuppa, try to sniff at a crab on the beach and gotten himself nipped, lick a cactus and all those silly things that we see pups do as they suss out their environment....adversives can be provided by nature and they are good teachers, and they don't have to psychologically or physically scar the student in order to have a profound impact on the student, so I don't see why they can't be called on in situations where their use is warranted. I had a conversation with a Delta trained trained instructor on the prong collar and in her opinion they are cruel and they hurt. She also mentioned that during her training they were shown a prong collar and had it put on her wrist to prove that they were cruel...my first thought was that the structure and anatomy of the human wrist is very different from that of a neck of a dog, and remembered reading somewhere (perhaps dol or www.k9force.net) that to make a comparison you should put the prong on your upper arm or thigh where it can work on skin rather than bone. Also during my initial internet search when I was investigating prong collars, I didn't find a single negative article about them....yet Delta are dead against them despite the fact that many dogs have shown remarkable improvements in the behaviours for which they were implemented. For the above reasons, I am leaning strongly toward NFDT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 I had a conversation with a Delta trained trained instructor on the prong collar and in her opinion they are cruel and they hurt. I know one Delta instructor who uses a prong on one of her dogs at home, but can't recommend them at work. I won't give her name (she really wouldn't appreciate that on a public forum). But seriously, they must yank on their students' wrists really hard to make them think the prong collar hurts! When I tried a prong on my arm, it really didn't hurt at all. Uncomfortable, yes. Painful, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 They also overlook the fact that aversives and corrections are a natural part of learning for dogs in many environments...and not just wild dogs....how many times have you seen a pup stick his nose into a hot cuppa, try to sniff at a crab on the beach and gotten himself nipped, lick a cactus and all those silly things that we see pups do as they suss out their environment....aversives can be provided by nature and they are good teachers, and they don't have to psychologically or physically scar the student in order to have a profound impact on the student, so I don't see why they can't be called on in situations where their use is warranted. Well written, Rom and good analogies given - they are exemplory of the "Laws of Learning". And I agree .... to exclude all aspects of training from the education of those who seek it is a bias approach and precludes those in their school from making choices. Not only that, but those who graduate from that school will not have learnt the sensitivities required to provide an aversive, and should they have need to explore this area on their own could well serve to an excessiveness that then becomes, as you mention, abuse. Better to know how to properly apply it should one find the necessity to do so than exclude it from discussion and choice altogether, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Yes Rom, well written. The only point I would add to the Prong collar point is, if a human were to put it on an arm as a comparison, then having a jumper on at the time would simulate what the dog would feel. It's common knowledge that human skin has much more nerve endings due to the fact that we have sweat pores and glands close to the surface of our skin. Simply having the same retort, "We don't do this because it's cruel" is the catchcry of the ignorant. If something is cruel then there is overwhelming scientific evidence to support the claim. In the case of Prong collars, scientific evidence was never a factor when the RSPCA lead a charge to have them banned. The emotive support was good enough for them and the rest of the blind and the ignorant. These people still think the earth is flat, even though there is evidence to prove otherwise. It's like George Bush's campaign to crush the evil doers, weapons of mass destruction. Funny how they still ahven't turned up yet the occupation still lives on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Hi Squeak, I'm finishing my NDTF course (same one as Petmezz). Here is my story: If there is such a thing, I consider myself a "positive trainer" or rather "motivational trainer". I like to use the more positive methods first before using any other method. When teaching I prefer to lure a dog and rather than 'correcting' i'd rather teach an alternate behaviour etc. That is just my way of teaching dogs and I prefer it. So, you would think this would lean me toward the Delta course, and it did. I chose the NDTF course however simply because I didn't want to say to people I don't use correction chains/ compulsion/ prong collars/ shock collars/ punishment (ok, you get the idea ) because they're cruel or because no one uses them any more, I wanted to tell them WHY I don't use them and back it up with personal experience. The other reason being that if I wanted to be listed as a Delta trainer, I have heard that you are only allowed to use positive methods - that means absolutely NO corrections of any kind. Sure, it will be my last port of call, but if you asked me to train a dog and It was either corrections or PTS, I wouldn't hesitate in using it. I like the fact that NDTF teaches you all of the methods you could use (in detail - a workshop for each). Sure, I walked into the correction chain workshop with a negative attitude. Did I walk out a converted correction chain trainer? Nope. I still stand by my reasons for training the way I do. BUT I did walk out wiser as to why I choose my methods as well as having a firm belief that I will use them, without question as a last resort. They are not cruel, but I simply believe that for an average handler, they do require a lot of skill (anyone who has seen me use them will know that I muck up a lot of the time!). Anyways i'm sure you didn't want to spark a debate about this and neither do I *g*! I've enjoyed the NDTF course and I think that it is a wiser choice to start with this course first. I still might go and do the Delta course later down the track. The lecturers will not force their methods onto you, they do explain all methods and accept whichever decision you choose to train, if it works *g*. I guess the benefit is that you can talk to specific trainers and ask "why don't you train this way" and most of them would have tried all of the methods. I agree with Herr Rottweiler - a lot of the reasons specific training tools have been banned is simply because of the emotive language used behind peoples arguments, not by scientific evidence. They only took one side of the story. Having said that, I don't particularly like them - but that is just personal preference isn't it Anyways squeak, I would recommend to do NDTF first, if you want more info, PM me, i'd be more than happy to tell you what else I felt about the course - positives and negatives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Anyways squeak, I would recommend to do NDTF first, if you want more info, PM me, i'd be more than happy to tell you what else I felt about the course - positives and negatives Can I take up the offer of additional info via PM as well? Would be highly appreciated! I agree with you about starting out with positives...and also I would only refer to corrections and adversives if it became apparent that they were needed, hope my post above didn't give the impression that I would employ the techniques without giving them or the nature of the dog in question careful consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 I agree with Herr Rottweiler - a lot of the reasons specific training tools have been banned is simply because of the emotive language used behind peoples arguments, not by scientific evidence. They only took one side of the story. Having said that, I don't particularly like them - but that is just personal preference isn't it That's right Leopuppy, it's fine to not like something or not want to use something once you fully understand everything in the right context. What I find arrogant and somewhat disturbing is when individuals or organisations want something banned because they don't like it, therefore believe that it shouldn't be available at all. I applaude people's right to chose what they want to use. The same liberties and courtesies are not returned. There is nothing more stimulating than sitting with open minded people and discussing techniques, methods, ideas etc. On the other side, there is nothing more offensive than talking to people who have no idea why, it's just that way to them because it is or someone told them This is based on an actual experiment done in the Uk. It was sent to me in an email and it best describes the actions of many of the dog training community that I have met They put eight monkeys in a room. In the middle of the room is a ladder, leading to a bunch of bananas hanging from a hook on the ceiling. Each time a monkey tries to climb the ladder, all the monkeys are sprayed with ice water, which makes them miserable. Soon enough, whenever a monkey attempts to climb the ladder, all of the other monkeys, not wanting to be sprayed, set upon him and beat him up. Soon, none of the eight monkeys ever attempts to climb the ladder. One of the original monkeys is then removed, and a new monkey is put in the room. Seeing the bananas and the ladder, he wonders why none of the other monkeys are doing the obvious. But undaunted, he immediately begins to climb the ladder. The water is no longer being sprayed by this time but all the other monkeys fall upon him and beat him silly. He has no idea why. However, he no longer attempts to climb the ladder. A second original monkey is removed and replaced. The newcomer again attempts to climb the ladder, but all the other monkeys hammer the crap out of him. This includes the previous new monkey, who, grateful that he's not on the receiving end this time, participates in the beating because all the other monkeys are doing it. However, he has no idea why he's attacking the new monkey. One by one, all the original monkeys are replaced. Eight new monkeys are now in the room. None of them have ever been sprayed by ice water. None of them attempt to climb the ladder. All of them will enthusiastically beat up any new monkey who tries, without having any idea why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 I love that story HR - found it was highly relevant to a group of people I was working with at the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 I can't wait for the day that NDTF offer the course via correspondence! I've looked into flying in each month but it's not relaly financially viable I like the NDTF program rather then Delta as I don't believe in 100% pure positive training. Each to their own and whatever works for them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Anyways squeak, I would recommend to do NDTF first, if you want more info, PM me, i'd be more than happy to tell you what else I felt about the course - positives and negatives Can I take up the offer of additional info via PM as well? Would be highly appreciated! I agree with you about starting out with positives...and also I would only refer to corrections and adversives if it became apparent that they were needed, hope my post above didn't give the impression that I would employ the techniques without giving them or the nature of the dog in question careful consideration. No not at all - I just wanted you to know what angle of training I was coming from 'before' and 'after'. By all means PM me - I won't bite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fido666 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 (edited) Well I was going to stay quiet but can't help myself . I am seeing lots of lovely comments here about the NDTF course being better than Delta but how many of the posters can speak from direct experience of both? I haven't done NDTF so won't say that it's better or worse than Delta, so why do NDTF people insist on critiquing Delta all the time? I'm not talking about positive vs negative methods here, just how the 2 courses compare in delivery and content. When someone here who has done both courses can relay their experiences I might be convinced which is better, until then I will reserve judgement. Note: The author has done the Delta Intensive but has deferred her studies for personal reasons. I found the instructors and tutors to be very knowledgable and helpful. I have looked into NDTF also, still trying to decide which way to go. Herr Rotweiller, You mentioned the following:- I applaude people's right to chose what they want to use. The same liberties and courtesies are not returned. There is nothing more stimulating than sitting with open minded people and discussing techniques, methods, ideas etc. On the other side, there is nothing more offensive than talking to people who have no idea why, it's just that way to them because it is or someone told them Not sure exactly what you mean here but where do you draw the line? Would it be OK if I jabbed my dog with an electric cattle prod if he didn't turn left when I wanted him too? A piece of equipment used incorrectly can inflict pain, too many instructors who use such equipment have no idea how it's meant to be used. I see so many dog owners who don't even know that a slip chain has to be fitted a certain way, they have them on upside down and drag their dogs around on them choking the poor creatures half to death . I might add that the reasons for training a certain way were discussed in my Delta classes, the theory and practice was covered in great detail. Please don't flame me guys, I'm not bagging NDTF here but I sense a very anti-Delta bias in the crowd tonight which isn't balanced or fair. Cheers, Corine Edited for spelling errors. Edited July 18, 2006 by fido666 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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