Rom Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Most competitors in agility that I've watched are constantly giving verbal directions to their dogs. I have also seen a few who say very little if any thing to their dogs during the run. What are the pro's and cons of these methods. I am leaning toward the silent running side of things because one of the blokes that I've had the opportunity to watch doing it on a number of occasions was really impressive. The dog was taking all of its cues from his body language. The bloke competed with boxers and they looked really stunning in the comps. On the other hand, I've noticed that many people lose points when they rely on the verbals too much and get a bit slack with the body language....it seems that the points were lost because the dog followed body language instead of verbal cue. As far as actually training my own dog to compete in this area goes, I'm very green, but have been attending agility trials as a spectator and steward for over 2 years. Would love to hear the thoughts of Dolers on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tiggy Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 I have the Greg Derret agility videos and he says very little, it's mostly body language. I'm a complete novice myself but prefer this to yelling out commands and naming all the equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted July 15, 2006 Author Share Posted July 15, 2006 Yeah, I've watched Greg D's foundation agility video. He actually trained his dogs to do a whole course by teaching them 'left' and 'right' (he used other words though)...so he has the ability to just stand back and direct his dogs around the whole course with verbals, but he made a point that in a trial situation he only relies on these commands in an emergency situation. Otherwise its body language for the directions. My Girl is only in foundation agility at the moment, but what I like about not using verbals is that after each obstacle she looks back to me to see where we're going next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 That's good as a sort of interim or occasional thing, but you don't necessarily want her to refer back to you all the time. There will be lots of times when you want her in obstacle focus rather than handler focus - e.g. where there is a sequence of obstacles which you want her to take while you get yourself to somewhere else on course or e.g. when you want to send her on ahead of you - to a table say, or to the finish. (Of course, that depends to some extent on how fast your dog is relative to you.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Is there anywhere I can get the Greg Derrett videos in Australia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted July 16, 2006 Author Share Posted July 16, 2006 Totally understand where you're coming from Barb. I still wonder about it all though, keeping in mind that as a handler, I'm very new to agility, so am very open to all comments. I'd like to share some of what I've noticed as an observer though: 1. handler has a word fumble and calls 'tunnel' instead of 'table'....dog still takes table...so is it that the dogs instinct to read and act on body language is superior (esp where split second decisions are needed) and we are just clouding the air with noise when we give verbals? 2. in a difficult jump sequence at training an experience dog and handler kept taking wrong course regardless of verbals given to dog until handler took 5 to get the body language right, then dog aced the sequence. 3. At an AADA trial, a section of the course was set up so that the entry to weaves was at right angle to the table. Sequence was table then weaves. On 3 occasions I saw handlers call 'table' then continue past the table to get ready to set up weave entry and despite the call, dogs followed handlers past the table to weave entry. Also, right or wrong, I always like to consider how a pack of dogs in the wild react to different things. One of reasons that a pack is formed is because it bodes for a more successful hunt = full bellies etc. By necessity, the hunt is a silent affair, you don't want to let your quarry know what you're up to. So in the wild, most of the co-ordination of the hunt is done silently. The reason that I like to do this that I've also read that domestication has only changed 15% of a dogs mind/instincts and I think that this can be evidenced in the fact that under the right circumstances, domestic dogs can return to being totally wild inside one generation. I've also read that a dogs peripheral vision is much more developed than ours, so is it possible that a dog does not necessarily have to look directly back to us to react to our body language and that in time and with training that my girl will not need to look directly back to me to get the cues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helen Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 I think most of what you are saying is true, the body language needs to be right, vocals can't compensate for poor body language. Having said that I certainly use vocals, if nothing else it makes me feel better and gets the air out of the lungs LOL. I also think that vocals can help, I have done a practice session with no words, it is easier on a open course then a tight course. I have quite often called the wrong obstacle, including recently calling the tyre 'that thing over there' LOL - dog did go by body language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 All your dog hears when your run is babble.. you are really only speaking for your own benefit. I only talk when I want the dogs attention and always call it by name. I don't say come, I say 'Maverick'. If you say the dogs name it will look at you for a cue, but if you just say come 9 time out of 10 they will ignore you. The dog will always look at your body or your feet. If your dog takes an off course, look down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tiggy Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Is there anywhere I can get the Greg Derrett videos in Australia? Air Dogs sell the first one on video and the second one on DVD. I wanted both on DVD so I ordered the first one from Greg Derrett's website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Thanks Tiggy - Air Dogs now has both on DVD..... have put in my order Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted July 17, 2006 Author Share Posted July 17, 2006 (edited) I quite often called the wrong obstacle, including recently calling the tyre 'that thing over there' LOL - dog did go by body language. This would be an issue for me too I think during the odd blonde or senior moment! ETA: also wonder if a dog would for example, attempt to take an obstacle at your verbal cue rather than finding his own stride to attack it? Edited July 17, 2006 by Rom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rastus_froggy Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Once i was running towards the tunnel and said (having a blonde moment) OVER... it really surprised me but my Froggy actually listened... she cleared the tunnel straight over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helen Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 There is a guy on the agility in motion DVDs that teaches obstacle names and can stand still and name the obstacle (side by side) he wants the dog to take Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Do you mean for discriminations? Rob Michalski? I did a workshop with him earlier this year and that was discussed - he's gone to body language cues for obstacle discriminations, which he showed us. I'm with Mav - quiet unless I want the dog's attention - I want anything I say to MEAN something. Having been to two Greg Derrett workshops helps with learning to be quiet of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted July 18, 2006 Author Share Posted July 18, 2006 (edited) Once i was running towards the tunnel and said (having a blonde moment) OVER... it really surprised me but my Froggy actually listened... she cleared the tunnel straight over... One of the things that I love about being an agility spectator is seeing a dog that is sooo motivated and handler focused offer up un trained for behaviours when the cues get a little confused! Its like....'Well, I'm not sure what you really want, but I'll have a go!' ETA: One thing I really hate is when the handler loses his/her bundle at the dog when this happens! Edited July 18, 2006 by Rom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rastus_froggy Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Thats one thing i could never do is to lose it with my dogs, i know that their "faults" really arent theirs... they are mine be it by wrong commands or lack of training! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 ETA: also wonder if a dog would for example, attempt to take an obstacle at your verbal cue rather than finding his own stride to attack it? This was an issue with the first dog I trained. Ricky was a really bad bar knocker and then I got told to shut up and let him work it out. Seems he took off when I said. Not sure how true that is but he certainly worked better when I was quiet. With Piper I find she often responds better to my body language if I am quiet. I get a better resopnse if I need to do a sharp turn or call her off of something if I use body language and voice provided I have not been using much voice prior to that on course. If I am calling each obstacle out she pays less attention when I give an important call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 ETA: also wonder if a dog would for example, attempt to take an obstacle at your verbal cue rather than finding his own stride to attack it? Yes! I caused my girl to crash through the spread hurdle a few weeks ago :D . It was a tight turn onto it, and I was afraid she would off course, so I called it loud and way too early, poor little pupster. Next time, similar sequence, I just told her 'Go' - which to her means 'take what's in front of you - in your own time' - and it worked well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeysue Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Im just learning about agility, with my Rotty, and he knows jumps, tunnel. table, big jump etc. But its me. I am beside him and point and talk, but when the jumps are side by side and he has to do one then turn for the next i am in the way. He is used to being on my left side for obedience so when i turn he is still going for left side and missing jumps.Its not him its me. So we have a few misses but lots of laughs. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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