Sit/stay In Groups

[gsdog2]

Hi there,

My 14mth old Goldie is working well (stand for exam. is much improved), but as seems to be the way, we have developed a new problem . I received a lot of advice with the stand for exam problem so I'm hoping for more of the same with this new one.

For a 14mth old he's great at "staying" but not keen on "sitting". In CCD he only needs to sit for one minute but apparently that's too long for him and he slowly slumps into a drop after about 40 seconds. I have stayed closer so that I can correct him immediately, I have cut the time down to stop the error occuring, I have made the time longer hoping that when he trials we'll make the minute. But he's still doing it . I don't think it's from pain in the hips, it's more like a lazy "Oh, I think I'll just lay down and wait for mum to come back to me" type of drop.

Any idea's or suggestions would really be appreciated.

[leopuppy04]

I have the same problem!!!!!!! I need ideas - this was why we NQ'd our first trial and as the saying goes 'he does it perfectly at home', does it perfectly outside of the ring, with lots of distractions, but I honestly don't know how to fix it.

gsdog2 - do you go back and reward often? Have you tried reducing it to say a 10-30 sec stay so that you can reward successes?

[gsdog2]

Yes leopuppy, we use food and his ball as rewards (both of which he loves). I squeak the ball when I think he's starting to go down (that works), and the 10-30 second stays work but as soon as we lengthen the time he goes down - not every time, but most times.

We did a ring work-out the other day and everything was great (including stand for exam) until we did groups and he lay down. He seems to do it more when I train him with other dogs (at home or at training) although he will also do it when he's by himself.

[Erny]

Yes leopuppy, we use food and his ball as rewards (both of which he loves). I squeak the ball when I think he's starting to go down (that works), and the 10-30 second stays work but as soon as we lengthen the time he goes down - not every time, but most times.

We did a ring work-out the other day and everything was great (including stand for exam) until we did groups and he lay down. He seems to do it more when I train him with other dogs (at home or at training) although he will also do it when he's by himself.

Try giving more positive feedback while he's sitting and BEFORE he thinks about sliding to the drop. Return more frequently (at first) - give him a treat whilst he's in a sit/stay, and return to your 'point'. Repeat a few times, and release. Reduce the time element - it sounds like it's a bit too much for whatever reason (maybe pushed to get there too fast?) Give the feedback regularly, gradually putting back the time factor.

Also - watch the tone of your voice. Keep it light.

[hopenfox]

Also, if he does go down in a stay, try to have someone else put him back into position - he may be enjoying your attention and the way he can get you to return whenever he wants you to...

[Erny]

Also, if he does go down in a stay, try to have someone else put him back into position - he may be enjoying your attention and the way he can get you to return whenever he wants you to...

I recently had to overcome this very problem with a dog I was working with. I was working on my own, so I had him sit near a fence, next to the fence pole. I threaded the long line over the pole and held the end in my hand. When the dog went to slide to the drop, I was able to prevent it by holding the lead and I then rewarded him for holding the sit. (The dog had no choice - I set him up to "win".) The dog understood and after that (I only had to do it twice) we progressed in leaps and bounds.

[gsdog2]

I recently had to overcome this very problem with a dog I was working with. I was working on my own, so I had him sit near a fence, next to the fence pole. I threaded the long line over the pole and held the end in my hand. When the dog went to slide to the drop, I was able to prevent it by holding the lead and I then rewarded him for holding the sit. (The dog had no choice - I set him up to "win".) The dog understood and after that (I only had to do it twice) we progressed in leaps and bounds.

Hi Erny, That's brilliant, I want to correct the mistake before it happens and I feel by going back to him and returning him to a sit is almost another command. With your idea I am still correcting the same excersise . I am keeping it light because I've seen a few Goldies shut down when it get's too serious ( I would like him to enjoy training). When you say positive feedback I'm assuming you mean talking to him in an "up" tone while he's still sitting? I'm still learning here, and I remember my old trainer was of the opinion you acted casual - looked away, and had no direct eye contact. You're saying I should talk to him and have eye contact?

[Erny]

Hi Erny, That's brilliant, I want to correct the mistake before it happens and I feel by going back to him and returning him to a sit is almost another command. With your idea I am still correcting the same excersise .

Thanks, gsdog2. In the case I speak of, the dog did not receive a "correction" in the technical sense. He did feel the pressure of the collar and to this he responded by not proceeding with the unwanted drop.

The method could be used for the delivery of a correction, but only on a dog where the "sit or drop/stay" is a known command. As to how well and timely that correction could be delivered when using this method (actually, I wouldn't even call it a method .... perhaps more a compromise in the absence of being able to do anything else) might be questionable, due to the interference the fence pole can cause on the lead.

When you say positive feedback I'm assuming you mean talking to him in an "up" tone while he's still sitting? I'm still learning here, and I remember my old trainer was of the opinion you acted casual - looked away, and had no direct eye contact. You're saying I should talk to him and have eye contact?

In the 'early stages' and/or when there is an issue to sort out, yes, I generally keep eye contact to a certain degree. A lot depends on the dog, though. Some dogs are easily submissive, and I find that direct eye contact can actually cause the dog to slide to a drop. I do speak in an "up" tone (not excitedly, but happy/nice).

I'll give one example, so you might get an idea. However I work differently with each individual dog, so this is not set in concrete.

Let's say my dog will hold a sit for 1 minute, but then slides to drop. In the one session, I will "sit" my dog, walk to the distance I know he is fine with also. Use the "nice" voice and after 15 seconds, walk back in, give the dog a small treat. At the time of giving the dog the treat, I might say (in a light voice) "sit" again and "good" (just a re-confirmation he's doing a good job), then I return to where I was. This is done quite fluently - no big pauses or remaining with the dog. Repeat again. Release and reward your dog here, if you think you need to (as I said, I vary things such as this, depending on the dog) so as to grab an opportunity for big time fun reward, especially if the dog is fidgety or looks like he might be thinking about dropping.

If you haven't released, then the next repeat will be similar, but look to achieve a time element of (eg) 20 seconds. THEN DEFINATELY release the dog and have fun.

If you did release the dog after the first repeats of (eg) 15 seconds as described above, then re-set the dog up, do one more exercise at 15 seconds and do the next one at (eg) 20 seconds. Then release.

Over a couple of sessions, I'll work this up to the 1 minute mark, and then beyond. Doing it this way (ie by going backwards in the time element to start with) allows me to fix any error that might have been made in the earlier training to have created the problem/confusion in the first place.

All this while, I am watching the dog - his face, body etc. This is what generally tells me when I should release or whether I might be able to achieve an improved time (or distance, if that's what I'm training for) element.

When the dogs I train are more reliable in this exercise, I introduce things such as looking away, turning away etc. etc.

I really don't like "training over the net" - I probably don't have the right talent for that, simply because WHAT I do and WHEN, really depends on the dog I'm working with at the time.

Hope you could follow this post and that you've not gone to sleep by the time you got to the end.

Edited July 12, 2006 by Erny

[Erny]

Oh - forgot to add something.

With dogs who have a tendancy to slide to drop when they should be in "sit", I reduce the level of reward they would otherwise receive for executing the "drop" on command, and make the reward for the "sit" a higher value reward. I do this until the problem has been resolved, and then level out the reward values.

[gsdog2]

Hi Erny,

I'm starting with your last comment first - I gather you do a lot of training and you do a great job explaining over the net. No I didn't go to sleep (I had to read it a couple of times though) and I'm going to the park tomorrow to try your advice out. I'm thinking I'll keep the fence post up my sleeve and start with the 15 second stay and work my way up from there. You have explained it clearly and so now I'm feeling really motivated to have another go with a definate direction to work with. When I asked my trainer what to do he just told me to pull my boy back into a sit! Not much help really.

I haven't done as many drop/stay excersises because as you can imagine he's pretty solid with that one. So I'll do as you say and maybe give him more of a praise reward instead of a food reward for his drops.

Thanks again

[gsdog2]

Sorry I misread your last post. I understand you mean on a normal heal excersise there should be more reward for the sit on command than the drop on command.

[leopuppy04]

Hey Erny,

Thanks for your help too - this should help Leo and myself also .

gsdog2 - tell me how you go - i'd like to hear your trouble shooting and success as my problem is pretty much identical to yours!!!! I'm out to practice tomorrow with another 2 dogs in a lineup to sort of mimic the trial ring a little more. It seems to be the lineup that makes my dog go down as when there isn't one, he tends to sit as i've proofed it just by having him hold his sit everywhere rather than what I used to do - drop him everywhere - that helped too .

GOOD LUCK! Maybe i'll see you around the rings one day.

Oh another thing - if your trainer is willing - practice some sit stays with the dogs in the line up - sit/drop/drop/sit/sit/sit etc. This is really good for proofing the sit-stays as i've noticed a few dogs do 'sympathy' drops in the sit-stays simply because the others around it have dropped also.

[gsdog2]

Hi Leopuppy,

I took him to the park this morning and after some heal work we started on the sit/stay. I followed Erny's instructions and of course there was no dropping, and there really was no opportunity for him. I returned to him giving him food rewards and leaving him for another 10 seconds. I did that a number of times and then "released him". With that we would have a game and play with the ball. We then went back and repeated the process until we were at 15 seconds. He didn't even look like he was going to drop. I decided to try again this afternoon, just in the back yard. Well, you wouldn't believe it, as soon as I left him an F111 (we live near the RAAF base) flew over our house, almost on top of us and my son came home on his trail bike. I decided it probably wasn't a good time and we have abandoned training for today.

My trainer did let me do a sit excersise while everyone else was on a drop. And I know what you mean, I've been to trials where it's like a domino effect and they just go down one by one to a drop. It's only funny when your dog is not one of the ones going down, but if your not in that ring you have to admit it look's pretty funny. They look at each other and it's like "well if he's going to lay down I'm not going to be the odd one out" and they slowly go down to a drop ;)

Can you let me know how you go tomorrow? I want to try mine with my 2 shepherds (they're very solid in a sit/stay) so maybe we'll compare notes.

Goodluck to you too

[Erny]

Sorry I misread your last post. I understand you mean on a normal heal excersise there should be more reward for the sit on command than the drop on command.

No - that's not really what I meant. When I have issues with a particular exercise/command, I don't work to fix it by keeping it attached to another command (unless the issue is somehow related).

If the problem is "sit" sliding to drop (as is yours), I might spend a session simply on "sits". All being well, I might throw in a "drop" but the reward for it will be a lesser one (unless, of course, he astounds you with the best ever air 'splat' type drop! ;)) than as for the "sit". All you're doing here is imprinting (for the time being) that "sits" are more important .... more worthwhile for your dog. So he'd prefer to "sit".

Of course, you need to return to the "drops" and give them the reward they do deserve. But it shouldn't take more than one, two or three sessions (in general) for the problem to resolve and for the dog to show a clearer understanding.

And then I do lots of "sit"; "drop"; "heel" and/or "stand" in sequence. (Not necessarily in that order or always in one particular order.) This helps the dog learn to really listen to the commands being issued, and differentiate one from the other.

[gsdog2]

Ok. I'm having a bit of a "blonde" moment. I'll train him at home this afternoon(hopefully no F111's ;) ), and we'll work on sits.

At the risk of having another "blonde" moment, did my post to Leopuppy sound right?

I followed Erny's instructions and of course there was no dropping, and there really was no opportunity for him. I returned to him giving him food rewards and leaving him for another 10 seconds. I did that a number of times and then "released him". With that we would have a game and play with the ball. We then went back and repeated the process until we were at 15 seconds. He didn't even look like he was going to drop.

[Erny]

did my post to Leopuppy sound right?

I followed Erny's instructions and of course there was no dropping, and there really was no opportunity for him. I returned to him giving him food rewards and leaving him for another 10 seconds. I did that a number of times and then "released him". With that we would have a game and play with the ball. We then went back and repeated the process until we were at 15 seconds. He didn't even look like he was going to drop.

Yes - sounds right. What you're doing is simply providing more frequent feed back and teaching the dog that remaining in the sit WILL get him the food rewards and that, BONUS, he'll be released and have fun. The closer you get to your known maximum time (ie the time when he USED to slide to a drop), the smaller the time increments should become, until you can get past that hurdle.

Does this make sense?

[whatevah]

Another hint is to make sure your dog has a night straight sit, as it is very hard to hold a puppy sit for a length of time. But Moses used to slide down on the sit as well. So I just went back to basics. I walked about 3 feet away and got him to sit for varying lengths of times. If he flopped down then that was my fault for making it to hard. I would then go back to an easier step. Once he could do the time I then extended the distance. I only practice about one sit stay at a time, and don't practice drop stays at all as he does that well.

Another hint is in the trial ring, while the judges and stewards are getting themselves ready don't have your dog in a sit, sometimes they like to waffle on.

Also once you have finished the sit stay, get your dog into a stand and walk a couple of steps before putting into a down, to get rid of the anticipation. Worked for me.

[gsdog2]

Crash TestDummy. That's sort of what Erny was saying too, by catching him before he starts to slump (I'll make sure he starts by sitting correctly). And yeah I'm not too worried about drops (I'll only do one now and again). I like your advice about the trial ring too. Especially for a young dog, they only have a fairly short attention span as it is, so the easier I can make it for him the better.

[gsdog2]

Yes Erny it does make sense. Basically, you don't provide the opportunity for the drop/slump to occur. So the closer we get to that all important 40 second mark the shorter the time increments ie. solid at 40 second, solid at 42 second, solid at 44 second etc.

[Erny]

You got it gsdog2.

This exercise also builds a lot of positive feedback to your dog - teaching it THIS is what you want.

It also means, when you've spent time doing this, if your dog breaks at say 30 seconds when you've clearly been working on, say 50 seconds, is more likely to understand the correction it receives (in whatever form of correction you use with your dog) is a correction for NOT holding the sit. It will be used to you giving the "good feedback" when you return to it, and makes it less likely that the dog will simply be happy for you to return at all (even if to be corrected back to a sit). It helps to eleviate confusion in the dog's mind and makes receipt of a correction more fair, and assists in building the reliability of the position.

Edited July 14, 2006 by Erny