lab and poodle Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Thanks Labandpoodle. Unfortunately, he's not keen to play tug with the dumbbell - I've already taught him to give it up to me when I reach for it! Thank you for acknowledging my help (or lack of it!). I can only work with what has worked for me. I can only look at my results cards and see 29/30,30/30 etc on retireve exercises.I see no confilct between drive and behavourist models for a lot of things. The divide is often a bit artifical. Never mind, have a read and try things out for yourself. I usually rewarded my high prey drive dog for a really good retrieve with guess what, a thrown toy. But I built up the precision of the exercise with the clicker. I think we can overlook the blinking obvious. When dog is moving is it much more likely that a stable mouth position is reached becuase it is neccessary. When the dog is sitting , the situation is different and I think could be plain uncomfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 K9: This is still happening as the dog hasnt got enough value for the toy & he "knows" you dont have the toy in the ring. If you correct this handler issue it will go away... What I showed you was the first step to curing this, you need to learn about delivery of the toy, presenting & location of the toy... The exchange was just a test to see if it would make a difference... Adding a steel item will not sort the chewing, its involuntary driven by the conflict... I'm really confused, did I drive eight hours to see you for a test? ;) I believe my dog knows the DB retrieve is an obedience exercise and not a game even though he does enjoy it. I work on all Obedience exercises with a toy reward which is 'the be all to end all' as far as my dog is concerned. At first (when you showed me this) I exchanged the DB for the game then gradually increased the amount of behaviours before the reward. If I am missing something I would love to know what and how to improve. Also I have taught him to do a seek back to a leather article, when he retrieves this there is no mouthing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 LP: I see no confilct between drive and behavourist models for a lot of things. K9: does this mean you think they dont exist or that you cant see them? The divide is often a bit artifical. K9: can you explain this please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 (edited) As everyone knows LOL, I had an intermittent mouth problems with my older male. Particularly when retrieving over water. It had gotten to the stage I was going to retire him from retrieving trials (All age - the highest standard apart from Championships). Obviously the problem was intermittent to reach this standard, as we did obtain his RRD title with multiple wins. I cannot begin to tell how how this thought upset me, as the dog loved retrieving and conceptually (blinds and such - stopping to the whistle, and directional changes), marking ability, water attitude were pretty damm good. His litter sibling was the current Australian national title holder. Another sibling (running also in All Age), I had been offered great money for. In their dreams One even suggested I keep breeding rights. Anyway, Steve K9 force came to the rescue. I changed EVERYTHING I could posssibly to alter in my problem dog's recall, after retrieving or just simple recalls. Heck even before I sent the dog, with motivational/drive techniques, which has completely changed my world to motivational drive techniques. The two "things" about all others is to to make the reward primary, not the retrieving object and you must change your body posture to take the pressure off, as one would expect, for a formal delivery. Break up the returns, anyway you can think of. Keep a good attitude always. It has worked. I have since become paranoid regarding the possibility of this nightmare occurring again, so have overcompensated. LOL. My young male returns like a bullet. Sometimes I have to move out of his way. As I am currently performing many drills with him at short distances, 40 yards too 100 yards or so at the moment, and greatly enjoy his attitude, I do not worry too much about the possibility of him hurting me (again - twisted knee/sprained ankle 2 weeks ago) but when I intermittently cue sit before him arriving back to me he skids to a stop on his bum for the last 10 yards or so. Edited July 13, 2006 by Lablover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 P: I'm really confused, did I drive eight hours to see you for a test? K9: if that is the only thing you saw & or learned then, I guess so I exchanged the DB for the game then gradually increased the amount of behaviours before the reward. If I am missing something I would love to know what and how to improve. K9: I havent heard from you so am not up on your progress, if you bhave a video of your dog & you using the item then please send it to me I will take a look for you.. Also I have taught him to do a seek back to a leather article, when he retrieves this there is no mouthing. K9: doesnt this suggest that he values the dumbell more? Didnt you also say that he doesnt mouth in training? only in trials? How does the dog know the difference? If training is different to trialling, then your not training to trial. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 (edited) PAX, Just a suggestion if I may. Video your dog. I found by doing so, I could see very clearly THE SECOND when the mouthing/stress occurred. Also when your dog is chewing the article what do you do? Again video your face and body. Next sit down after you send him and gauge his mouthing. the look on his face, I promise when he sees you sitting down will be priceless, worth the effort. Also run away from him and check his response. Just a couple of simple "things" to try. Edited again. |I must use word first, then cut and paste, or whatever it is in computer lingo. Edited July 13, 2006 by Lablover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 OK I know nothing about retrieving apart from what I have seen here or there. Ive seen PAXs dog way before last Xmas, in her yard doing the retrieve and he did one or two chomps on return. That was a big improvement since the workshop they attended. And his attitude was also better than at the workshop, so I can only imagine that he has improved since than again. Lisa is just a perfectionist with high expectations for him. But I have seen videos with different styles of delivery of the reward, not that I know the difference, but it must make some. How do you deliver the toy PAX? The one I have seen on a the video was released from being held by a chin on the top of the torso, is thsi of any help to you? or am I making more confusion here for everyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 being held by a chin on the top of the torso, is thsi of any help to you? or am I making more confusion here for everyone? What do you mean Myszka? I am sure my typed replies confuse many too!!!! I am more a practical teacher/trainer than theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 sorry what I meant was the handler was standing still, hands along the body the ball that he was rewarding the dog with he held sort of on his neck, his chin was holding it, head down slightly ball was between his chin and bottom of the neck/top of torso where the two collar bones meet. When the dog arrived he took the dumbell with both hands and all he did was lift the chin and the ball dropped straight into the dogs mouth. Did I described it clearly? Otherwise I might have to spend a day looking for that video..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 sorry what I meant was the handler was standing still, hands along the body the ball that he was rewarding the dog with he held sort of on his neck, his chin was holding it, head down slightly ball was between his chin and bottom of the neck/top of torso where the two collar bones meet. When the dog arrived he took the dumbell with both hands and all he did was lift the chin and the ball dropped straight into the dogs mouth. Did I described it clearly? Otherwise I might have to spend a day looking for that video..... Got you. Thanks. Damm, that focus stuff works!!!!! Conditions the dog for the delay in achieving the reward. So helpful with progression. Yank is luckily at the stage of intermittent rewards. Much quicker nowadays. Love it. And more importantly the dogs learn sooooooooo quickly and with a clear head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 is this something you do LL? just out of interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 K9: Its not as much about knowing where & how to deliver the item its knowing why so that you may adjust it as you go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 K9: Its not as much about knowing where & how to deliver the item its knowing why so that you may adjust it as you go... I am not Pauline Hanson, but I was going to ask you to "please explain" until I concentrated on the word WHY. "Eyes" tired tonight, actually not just my eyes, my whole bod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 is this something you do LL? just out of interest? Yes, only about 100 times per day though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 I meant that type of a delivery, not from a peg, or the hand from behind you or otherwise, from under your chin? I mean of course amongst 99 other types of delivery..... you might choose to do on the day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 I meant that type of a delivery, not from a peg, or the hand from behind you or otherwise, from under your chin? I mean of course amongst 99 other types of delivery..... you might choose to do on the day... Myszka, It depends on the dog and what I am doing at the time. Stamp for example, sometimes becomes too high. I do not like tricking my dogs and I suppose I am not, by pocketting/hiding the motivator, as Stamp knows it is still on my person. Sometimes I place the motivator (or a pile of reward bumpers) a distance away from the training area being used, as rewards for excellent responses. It depends. I did intermittently throw the motivator for instant sits with Yank. Again it depends on what I see, what I am trying to teach and (the magic word) WHY. I think my timing is good. I do praise/encourage vocally as well for good training responses. I also no no too. The dogs know no no, does not mean bad dog, but rather no, try again. The look in their eyes/body language is rather great, when they get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 I have only had one run out (three trials) last weekend at Open level. I thought the mouthing problems were behind me but I was wrong. In training If he mouths the DB I can give a verbal correction, stop the mouthing then take when he has a good hold. Perhaps I am doing this more often than not so it's something I'll have to watch. I will keep working on this problem but a judge told me on the weekend that she would only ever take one point off for mouthing which I thought was very kind, so I am not going to stress about it anymore. I use the toy delivery a bit like how LL explained. Sometimes I have it on me and some times I will release him and run to where I have hidden them and sometimes I will send him to the bag to get it. I am sure my dog knows the probability of getting drive satisfaction in the ring is non existant so this is another thing I have to work on. Well I'm off to Brisbane for the Speciality (and more Open Disobedience ;) ) so I will catch up on this topic after the weekend. I think I'm going to get a Lab, Do you know of any LL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 13, 2006 Author Share Posted July 13, 2006 I am sure my dog knows the probability of getting drive satisfaction in the ring is non existant so this is another thing I have to work on. Would it be possible for you to participate in some funmatches, Pax, so that you can suprise him by rewarding (and correcting) him in the ring, when he least expects it? Only one point off for mouthing isn't too bad, I guess. I thought they'd probably take more off than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatevah Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Moses was a chronic mouther of the dumbell. I used to have a wooden dumbell, and bits of wood went everywhere. I changed to plastic. What I did was when he brought it in and sat in front, I waited for the mouthing to stop, as soon as it stopped I clicked and treated. I think I also only did tiny retrieves of a couple of feet, as I was mainly focusing on the sit hold and give. The first time I did this, he was mouthing it for ages, I just waited him out, until the mouthing stopped. The second time went quicker as did the third. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Well I'm off to Brisbane for the Speciality (and more Open Disobedience ) so I will catch up on this topic after the weekend. Have a great time and good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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